Get my point.
Christ coming with angels or all his saints is not a contradiction because at that point they are one the same. Angels are spirits apart from a coruptable habitation. However angels "holy spirits" do for a point in time become one in those which call on the name of the Lord.
Actually, many of us do agree about some endtime events such as what happens at the 7th trumpet, but the difference is that several believe something different happens to the Church as it is being called out today before the events begin taking place. We all look at the events now as if we are living because we are living and we're all not sure of where we are presently in how the Lord looks at the end of the age. Sorry, don't know if that made sense. Some look at the events of the 7th trumpet happening on earth, while all those who are the Church are already with Jesus.
speaking of clouds, this reminds me of the passage in Hebrews, being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. If they are clothed in white then so many would maybe look like clouds.
The vision in the first chapter of Ezekiel always fasinates me. There was a wind that brought a great cloud with fire flashing forth and a bright light around it with something like glowing metal in the middle of it. I try to envision maybe a clear day and a cloud like this coming from the north.
Inside the cloud are 4 living beings, with wheels.
Over the heads of the living beings were something like an expanse, and it was spread out over their heads. Above the expanse, over their heads was something like a throne and a figure on the throne. The radiance was like the "glory of the Lord". Anyway, when the wheels moved the beings went wherever the wheels went. I can't help but see the entire expanse, the throne etc, which are above the beings with wheels moving whenever the wheels move.
Last edited by My heart's Desire; Nov 12th 2007 at 05:15 PM. Reason: spelling
10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
2And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightning.
1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Jesus was was using the apocalyptic language of the prophets to identify Himself as the Messiah:
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
All about hope:
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.(salvation clouds)
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Has the prophecy changed, you ask? No. nothing written about that!
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The following scripture cannot possibly be symbolic, as they were watching him as he was taken up in a cloud, and then they were told that he would return in the same way, in a cloud:
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
The literal interpretation of the Lord "coming in the clouds", as referring to the Second Coming and return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth, has been a fundamental Christian belief since the first century when Jesus ascended into heaven in the sight of those disciples, the scriptures themselves testify of this.
Last edited by quiet dove; Nov 13th 2007 at 07:10 PM. Reason: removed accusing line
- Matt -
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
There's not a single verse which says "taken back to heaven", there's only 1Thess4:17 which says (in Greek) "go to welcome him in the air" That verb is only used - such as the brethren in Rome welcoming Paul - when they go out to the city gates to greet someone.
So there's no contradiction - all the verses speak of a touchdown, in Jerusalem.
Acts 1:9 Mt Olives -> Air -> Clouds -> Heaven,
Acts 1:11 Heaven -> Clouds -> Air -> Mt Olives
There is no rapture, except to Jerusalem.
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