Behold He Cometh With The Clouds!!!!!!

[Firstfruits]

Not on the new earth, for this happens during a battle against Jerusalem.
I would say somewhere around the time of what is known as Armageddon.

Then that as it is written is when the present heaven and earth are dissolved.

Is 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

Ps 75:3 The earth and all The inhabitants Thereof are dissolved: I bear up The pillars of it. Selah.

Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and The hills melt, and The earth is burned at his presence, yea, The world, and all that dwell Therein.

Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[Soj]

Hi Wintermute
There's not a single verse which says "taken back to heaven", there's only 1Thess4:17 which says (in Greek) "go to welcome him in the air" That verb is only used - such as the brethren in Rome welcoming Paul - when they go out to the city gates to greet someone.

Steven, despite what you interpret in the Greek, the English in the passage is plain and needs no clarification:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" so the saints WILL be airborne!


I not only believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church saints, but also an mid-tribulation rapture of Tribulation saints, and the account of this in Rev 11 DOES say that they are taken to heaven!

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


There will be two future raptures of God's saints where God takes them from this earth up to heaven. Enoch was a type of this:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

[Steven3]

Hi Soj_NZ

Steven, despite what you interpret in the Greek, the English in the passage is plain and needs no clarification:

Well it does need clarification because "meet" to English speakers means - "meet and go back with him" (destination heaven), wheras in Greek the verb means "meet and he comes back with us" (destination earth). If you don't believe me check it using Youngs.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" so the saints WILL be airborne!

Well I don't think the angels will be delivering airline tickets to the four corners of the earth. We all agree that the gathering when Christ comes back will be airborne.

The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven", but unfortunately first there's the trivial matter of the ssshhhhhhh! don't mention the j word!!

Take care
and God bless
Steven

[Firstfruits]

Hi Soj_NZ Well it does need clarification because "meet" to English speakers means - "meet and go back with him" (destination heaven), wheras in Greek the verb means "meet and he comes back with us" (destination earth). If you don't believe me check it using Youngs.

Well I don't think the angels will be delivering airline tickets to the four corners of the earth. We all agree that the gathering when Christ comes back will be airborne.

The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven", but unfortunately first there's the trivial matter of the ssshhhhhhh! don't mention the j word!!

Take care
and God bless
Steven

The New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Is 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Does that answer you question?

[ross3421]

The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven",

No, They do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain.

Correction / addition to above statement......

The resurrected will meet the Lord in the air to be judged, now will this be in the literal heaven where the Lord is now? Good question. The following verse states perhaps initially as we see the Great White Throne in heaven but then heaven and earth pass paving the way for the new heaven and earth. Maybe this is why Paul states "in the air' and does not quantify actually "where" as it appear to be much transition taking place from old to new. Neverless, Christ returns to the Kingdom which was in heaven and will be then be on earth.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Ill just thrown in EZ 40 to show the same parallel........the eternal kingdom of God.

2In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.


Mark

[Firstfruits]

No, they do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Ill just thrown in EZ 40 to show the same parallel........the eternal kingdom of God.

2In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.


Mark

It is written that the new Jerusalem is not on this present earth because the present heaven and the present earth will be passed away.


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[Wintermute]

No, they do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain.

It is my view that at the first coming, the righteous are taken to Heaven, and the wicked destroyed. After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

[Firstfruits]

It is my view that at the first coming, the righteous are taken to Heaven, and the wicked destroyed. After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

Please explian what you mean by "Christs first coming" with the understanding that he only returns once?

[ross3421]

It is written that the new Jerusalem is not on this present earth because the present heaven and the present earth will be passed away.

I was refering to the time after this old heaven and earth are passed away?????? What would make you think I meant someting else?

[Wintermute]

Please explian what you mean by "Christs first coming" with the understanding that he only returns once?

Yeah, I shouldn't have said it that way. The first coming of Christ is when he came here as Man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Second coming is in clouds (with angels) and takes righteous up to Heaven; wicked are destroyed. Third coming is when Christ comes with the New Jerusalem and saints and touches down on Mount of Olives.

[Firstfruits]

I was refering to the time after this old heaven and earth are passed away?????? What would make you think I meant someting else?

Just needed clarification, thanks.

[Firstfruits]

Yeah, I shouldn't have said it that way. The first coming of Christ is when he came here as Man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Second coming is in clouds (with angels) and takes righteous up to Heaven; wicked are destroyed. Third coming is when Christ comes with the New Jerusalem and saints and touches down on Mount of Olives.

What do you mean by a "third coming" again there is only on return.

[ross3421]

After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

Ask yourself a couple of questions which should help in setting up a time table. In addition the answers should raised a concern about the millennium as being literal.

1. When are the righteous resurrected
2. When are the wicked resurrected.
3. When is the old heaven and earth destroyed.


All three occur on the last day, the Day of the Lord, Christ's second coming. For scripture states that this old earth and heaven are destroyed upon Christ's return thus the new earth must appear at this time as well not a 1000 years later. Also at this time is the resurrection whereby the dead in Christ (and the wicked) are raised and taken to the Kingdom and judged.



Mark

[divaD]

What do you mean by a "third coming" again there is only on return.

actually, if one were to get techinical, Christ's second coming was at His ressurrection. Did He not come back then? Technically then, when He returns again, it will be His third coming. I'm inclined to believe that He's only coming back one more time, not 2 or 3 times, nor in secret. Technically speaking, this would be His 3rd and final coming.

[Allegra]

We are discussing the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, and this huge future event is not symbolic but literal!

The following scripture cannot possibly be symbolic, as they were watching him as he was taken up in a cloud, and then they were told that he would return in the same way, in a cloud:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



The prophecies of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are all throughout scripture, yes.

The above scriptures have nothing to do with the return of Jesus Christ in the clouds, but are a reference to Jehovah God in the Old Testament when He showed his glory to Israel. Only Moses spoke directly with Him while the rest of the people saw the cloud, which was enough for them to believe God because the cloud was the sign they required!

Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

This is the Second Coming.

Most of those scriptures concern the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ - that's what they are written about. You are just making spiritual application from the verses and ignoring the doctrinal teachings, probably because they don't fit in with your doctrine.

The literal interpretation of the Lord "coming in the clouds", as referring to the Second Coming and return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth, has been a fundamental Christian belief since the first century when Jesus ascended into heaven in the sight of those disciples, the scriptures themselves testify of this.

Oh no, no, no. I'm not mixing up spiritual vs. physical dichotomy here.
My doctrine? Oh I see, your doctrine is the only & final one. Where is the love and patience for each other. If we devour one another, what example do we show to unbelievers?
There are many of the Faith that believe Jesus came in judgment in 70AD.
And for those then-it would be a second time.
Hebrews 9:28
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Maybe your doctrine depends on how you interpret a second time in context of the verse.
The verses I quoted were to give examples of how God presents Himself to His people all throughout Scripture. That was responding to the O.P.
Malachi 3:6
6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
This was my basis to show that the prophecy has not changed.
You picked up on a doctrine. That was not my focus.
I can appreciate the orthodoxy in your statements. I too believe Christ is returning in the classical sense. I think I'm going "home" to Him before that, but that's alright too.
God Bless You and keep the Faith.
Yours truly in Christ.