Old Testament salvation

[Toolman]

If I recall correctly, and with some inference on my part, your take on Romans 2, with its rather clear statements about justification by works is that it addresses a "non-existent" category of people - that it is a description of how we would be justified if we could be justified by the law.

Please clarify exactly how you interpret Romans 2, specifically in relation to statements Paul makes about people being justified by things they do.

My opinion is that the view that Romans 2 involves Paul speaking about how things would be if we were justified by works seem awfully awkward and contrived (I am not necessarily ascribing this view to you, by the way). If one argues this way - claiming that Paul is speaking about a different universe in which one is justified by works - one can accomplish almost anything.

Yes, that is generally what I believe Paul's case is leading up to through Romans 2 is that no person is justified by the Law.

That is his exact point and I don't see it as either awkward or contrived.

I hope to get back to you re the issue of whether "law" means "Torah" in Romans generally and in chapter 4 in particular.

k

[tgallison]

Jesus tells us in His word that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. Under the Old Testament covenant, salvation was based upon man's ability to keep the law and maintain the sacrifices of atonement for sin.

My question is this... Most of us would agree that obtaining salvation through works and following the rituals of the law is not obtainable. If one must accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus to be saved, what is the salvation status of those who died under the old covenant? Furthermore, how are they brought under the sacrifice of Christ?

Hburgpreacher Hi

Who better than David should know whether works get you into heaven in the Old Testament.

Psalm 143:1 "Hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness." (Jesus is our righteousness)

Psalm 143:2 "And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified."

It sure sounds here like David had no interest in being judged by the law. It sounds more like he was begging for mercy.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

[Partaker of Christ]

I'm going to start here, because I find much agreement with it, and it's always so much nicer to agree than to disagree. We have been saved for a purpose! I love that. Our salvation is not just about us being reconciled to God but about spreading the GOOD NEWS of that reconcilation to others, furthering the Kingdom, as you say.

The Father, through Christ in us, produces fruit, first in our own lives. As we decrease and He increases, He can draw others to Himself through us. This produces, then, the fruit of others coming to know Him as their Savior, and also the fruit of drawing other believers into a deeper relationship with Him. There are people here who the Father has used for that very purpose in my life and I am so grateful!

What an awesome reward to be used in that way. And I agree that we can deny ourselves that reward by resisting God's work within us.



And this is where we'll part ways, if I'm understanding you correctly. Salvation IS Jesus Christ, and I can't lose Him because I'm not the one who is doing the holding on. If I was, then it is a surety that I would lose. But, praise God, HE is holding onto ME!!

But it is entirely possible, I believe, to lose the reward of being used by Him to further His Kingdom. We CAN be cut off from that high calling, just as the unbelieving Jews were cut off and also we can and do, in our own lives, forfeit the fullness of His fruit in our own lives every time we look to ourselves and what we do, rather than looking to Christ in us. That is my true conviction, and why this topic concerns me so much. The temptation to fall back on looking to myself instead of Him is always there for me (and I think for all of us). And giving into that temptation leads to a loss of the peace of knowing that it is Christ and Christ ALONE who saves me -- in every way.

Hi Pleroo!

100% agree with you on all of this.

Personally I think, that one of the biggest causes of damage to a Christians growth, is Introspection.
It takes our eyes off Him, and on ourselves. Our eyes should be single.
When we look to ourselves all we see is our darkness. He is the Light.

Just as the Earth and Moon are in themselves naturally dark, so are we.
As the earth and the moon turns towards the sun, they begin to reflect the light from the sun. The more they turn to the sun, the more light they reflect.
He is the True Light, and the more we turn to Him, the more of His light we reflect in the dark world.
If we turn our back to Him, His light still shines upon us, but all we see is our dark shadows.

[Toolman]

Hi Pleroo!

100% agree with you on all of this.

Personally I think, that one of the biggest causes of damage to a Christians growth, is Introspection.
It takes our eyes off Him, and on ourselves. Our eyes should be single.
When we look to ourselves all we see is our darkness. He is the Light.

Genesis 2:25, 3:6-11 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

The serpent's deception has always been for us to place our "eyes" upon ourselves (our nakedness) and our "good" or "evil" and to take our eyes away from the tree of life.

Adam and Eve were unconcerned with their nakedness until their eyes were opened to introspection.

[Pleroo]

Hi Pleroo!

100% agree with you on all of this.

Personally I think, that one of the biggest causes of damage to a Christians growth, is Introspection.
It takes our eyes off Him, and on ourselves. Our eyes should be single.
When we look to ourselves all we see is our darkness. He is the Light.

Just as the Earth and Moon are in themselves naturally dark, so are we.
As the earth and the moon turns towards the sun, they begin to reflect the light from the sun. The more they turn to the sun, the more light they reflect.
He is the True Light, and the more we turn to Him, the more of His light we reflect in the dark world.
If we turn our back to Him, His light still shines upon us, but all we see is our dark shadows.

I love it when the Father does this -- what you've said here is such a confirmation of what He's been dealing with me on in the last little while -- the danger of introspection. It's such an insidious habit!

[Pleroo]

The serpent's deception

Sssserpent'ssss deccception
Inssssidioussss introsssspection




Sssssorry. Couldn't help myself.

[Toolman]

Sssserpent'ssss deccception
Inssssidioussss introsssspection




Sssssorry. Couldn't help myself.

Reminds me of a bad b-movie I saw as a kid...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070622/

[Jesusinmyheart]

The serpent's deception has always been for us to place our "eyes" upon ourselves (our nakedness) and our "good" or "evil" and to take our eyes away from the tree of life.

They looked to themselves to gain wisdom and knowledge, to become like God, and they acted upon that fleshly desire.

If they had listened to the Word of God who told them not to eat of that tree, and followed through on what God told them not to do, they would have been fine.

The sin of Adam and Eve wasn't manifested til both of them ate, and in fact until the head of the house ate.

Looking to oneself to make sure that what we do is in line with God's Word is no sin.

2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Jesusinmyheart]

I seriously am aghast that Introspection is considered a sin.... It's shocking and bewildering to me...

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Scriptures tell us to examine ourselves:

1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

This here tells us that a person who drinks the cup without making sure that what the body does is in line with the Word, eats and drinks judgment on themselves.

It's like claiming the Name, and not playing the Game.

This is IMO a very dangerous road to be on...........


Shalom,
Tanja

[Toolman]

I seriously am aghast that Introspection is considered a sin.... It's shocking and bewildering to me...

I am aghast that works are seriously being considered a means of meriting and earning salvation but sometimes it be's that way

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Shalom,
Tanja

There is no doubt that human's who have been justified but not yet glorified are called to examine themselves because we, unfortunately, are still fallen creatures not fully saved yet and we battle the flesh.

This will not be the case when sin is finally destroyed and no longer exists. There will be no need for introspection for our eye will be fully light.

I've posted this before as far as how I believe the scripture, as a whole, teaches us to handle self-examination:

I personally look at examining myself as a sword and a dagger.

The Sword
On the one hand I examine my position in Christ, that He has purged ALL my sin and the penalty for it FOREVER, that I am now seated with Him in the heavenlies secure in His Grace, and that in Him I am blessed with ALL spriritual blessings. My identity is found in Him and Him alone.

This is the sword of examination. I must constantly remind myself that when God looks upon me He sees His Son and not my sin.
This conquers the condemnation that the enemy would love for me to wallow in.

The Dagger
On the other hand I examine my practical walk with the Lord. Where am I missing the mark in what He would will for my life. Who would He have me minister to that I have neglected? What intents of my heart are not godly?

This is the dagger of examination. This conquers the complacency that the enemy would love for me to slide into.

The Precedence
The sword and the dagger are both vital but the sword must always proceed (take precedence over) the dagger or condemnation and guilt will result from the dagger.

And just to clarify any examination we do is because of God working in our hearts to conform us to the image of His Son. We do not do it in our own power or strength. True examination comes from God and does not bring condemnation but brings about a progressive maturing and conforming to His image.

[Jesusinmyheart]

I am aghast that works are seriously being considered a means of meriting and earning salvation but sometimes it be's that way

Toolman, i am tired of you painting me in a way that is contrary to what i say. I have NEVER said one can earn salvation. I have repeatedly explained that earning salvation is NOT possible.
What you consider to be earned salvation is what i consider justification by works, these are not interchangeable, however, there is a fine line and they are closely related.

Since you cannot understand my position you fail to see what i mean despite my efforts of explaining it to you.
I would ask that you refrain from painting me in a light that i'm certainly not. I repeat: SALVATION CANNOT BE EARNED. AND I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE!
What you and i have a beef with is how justification comes about.

Do you really think God will justify you if you willingly disobey, even though you believe in Yeshua?

Shalom,
Tanja

[Pleroo]

I seriously am aghast that Introspection is considered a sin.... It's shocking and bewildering to me...

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Scriptures tell us to examine ourselves:

1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

This here tells us that a person who drinks the cup without making sure that what the body does is in line with the Word, eats and drinks judgment on themselves.

It's like claiming the Name, and not playing the Game.

This is IMO a very dangerous road to be on...........


Shalom,
Tanja

I sure can't improve on what TM said, Tanja, but I do want to add my .02.

Looking at myself through my eyes, never bears good fruit in my life.

The Psalmist said:

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


It's God-inspection as opposed to Intro-spection, if you see what I mean.

[Toolman]

Toolman, i am tired of you painting me in a way that is contrary to what i say. I have NEVER said one can earn salvation. I have repeatedly explained that earning salvation is NOT possible.
What you consider to be earned salvation is what i consider justification by works, these are not interchangeable.

Shalom,
Tanja

Tanja,

I'm not trying to paint anything contrary to what you are stating.

Earning salvation and justification by works are synonymous. They are the same thing.

If we are going to start with comments like "I'm aghast that...", then don't be offended if the same comes back

I'm not trying to be mean to you personally here (its not personal at ALL) but I will continue to call a duck a duck and justification by works is earned salvation and it is THE very doctrinal reason for the reformation.

[Jesusinmyheart]

I sure can't improve on what TM said, Tanja, but I do want to add my .02.

Looking at myself through my eyes, never bears good fruit in my life.

Ok right there is where you err, when i introspect, and examine myself i look at myself from what the Word says it true and good. So i'm looking at myself from His perspective.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Jesusinmyheart]

TM i'm going to show you what i mean and see that one is Justified by Faith, i do not disagree with that biblical statement at all, but i disagree with how this is understood to work by many. (pun)

Give me about 5-10 minutes and i will have a response to that and an explanation how this goes along with works justifying us.

Shalom,
Tanja