Old Testament salvation

[Jesusinmyheart]

Hey TM,
i accept your appologies with much gratitude, though i have not felt offended.
I understand thjat my position and view on things differ.

I hope i likewise have not offended you in any way.

I disagree vehemently with your position on justification but I respect and cherish you as a person and child of God.

I ditto that !!!

Shalom,
Tanja

[Pleroo]

We are supposed to seek and find, knock... and this is what yeshua was saying to the Pharisees there, that scripture is actually a command of Yeshua telling the Pharisees to read the Word, and read it correctly... leaving them without their traditions.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Go ahead and google this, there are quite a number of protestant scholars that believe this can very much be understood as a command by Yeshua, for the Pharisees to read the scriptures, and they would not do that, because they knew that their traditions were not scriptural, they knew that their extra rules and decrees were not in scripture, and moreover a burden they would not bear themselves.

That's what Yeshua was saying here.

Shalom,
Tanja

Tanja, I wanted to address this, because perhaps you got the wrong impression. I, in no way, am saying that Scripture is unimportant. But what you're saying about how you believe this passage should be translated, doesn't in any way negate the point I was making by quoting it...

If our asking, seeking, knocking leads us to attempting to do anything to justify ourselves before God, then we are missing the point of Scripture. If it is not leading us to Jesus Christ, and Him alone, then we are missing LIFE. Anything else is death.

Does that make what I was saying clearer?

[Jesusinmyheart]

Pleroo,
I understand, but still, if i seek the word, and it becomes written on my heart as i sit and ponder it, and the Holy Spirit makes it understandable to me, and i start living out the Word, am i really doing anything of myself or is the Word in me doing it ?


I have an example, that crossed my mind as i was reading a book earlier about scripture and prophecy. What i was reading was:

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

When Yeshua was going to the synagogue every sabbath and spending time there reading scriptures, He surely did come across this and saw this. The Word of God spoken through His prophet Isaiah.
We know that Yeshua as a human learned things and increased in wisdom too.

So then it dawned on me that Yeshua learned from the scriptures how He was to act and do, when that time came. The Holy Spirit no doubt helped Him through that time reminding Him of Isaiah. So He followed The Word, (or Himself if you will) to the "T".

In the same way i believe we can learn from the Word what we are to do in any given situation, and should we forget due to the trying time we might be in, the Holy Spirit is quick to remind us. Following the Word after it has sunk deep within us to do it's work IMO is a VERY far cry from doing things on my own.

Shalom,
Tanja

[drew]

I understand, but still, if i seek the word, and it becomes written on my heart as i sit and ponder it, and the Holy Spirit makes it understandable to me, and i start living out the Word, am i really doing anything of myself or is the Word in me doing it ?

I agree with your implication here. I do not wish to seem critical of others, but I do think there is a problem when people take the "salvation is a gift of God" idea and get so literal and "technical" about it that they argue that any position that has us doing anything, even simply reaching out to accept the gift, amounts to an effort to achieve salvation by "by works".

[Toolman]

I agree with your implication here. I do not wish to seem critical of others, but I do think there is a problem when people take the "salvation is a gift of God" idea and get so literal and "technical" about it that they argue that any position that has us doing anything, even simply reaching out to accept the gift, amounts to an effort to achieve salvation by "by works".

Let me be clear here that I have never stated that works are not involved in salvation. I believe they are intergral and will be evident in those whom the Spirit dwells.

But works are not what justify us before God. Never have and never will.

[StevenC]

My question is this... Most of us would agree that obtaining salvation through works and following the rituals of the law is not obtainable. If one must accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus to be saved, what is the salvation status of those who died under the old covenant? Furthermore, how are they brought under the sacrifice of Christ?

It could be said that it was God's desire that Israel be saved.

Psalms 95:10-11 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

However, because of Israel's rebelliousness God gave them a covenant not of salvation but of judgment.

Ezekiel 20:23-25 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Regarding whether those who lived during Old Testament times can be saved, the answer is most assuredly yes!

Matthew 22:31-33 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

That is, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be there in the kingdom among all those whom God declared righteous.

-Steven

[Pleroo]

Pleroo,
I understand, but still, if i seek the word, and it becomes written on my heart as i sit and ponder it, and the Holy Spirit makes it understandable to me, and i start living out the Word, am i really doing anything of myself or is the Word in me doing it ?


I have an example, that crossed my mind as i was reading a book earlier about scripture and prophecy. What i was reading was:

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

When Yeshua was going to the synagogue every sabbath and spending time there reading scriptures, He surely did come across this and saw this. The Word of God spoken through His prophet Isaiah.
We know that Yeshua as a human learned things and increased in wisdom too.

So then it dawned on me that Yeshua learned from the scriptures how He was to act and do, when that time came. The Holy Spirit no doubt helped Him through that time reminding Him of Isaiah. So He followed The Word, (or Himself if you will) to the "T".

In the same way i believe we can learn from the Word what we are to do in any given situation, and should we forget due to the trying time we might be in, the Holy Spirit is quick to remind us. Following the Word after it has sunk deep within us to do it's work IMO is a VERY far cry from doing things on my own.

Shalom,
Tanja

Tanja,

I read something recently that I think puts this into perspective. I'm going to try to summarazie it here.

In the garden of Eden, God planted 2 trees: the Tree of Life (ToL), and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (ToK). BOTH of those trees were planted there by God, yet one brought LIFE and one brought death. The ToL is Jesus. In eating of Him, we have LIFE. The ToK is anything we do that is independent of Him and when we eat of that, we die. In a sense, you could say that both of these trees are the word of God. The ToL is the Living Word, the ToK is the letter of the word.

Notice that on the ToK there is not just evil, there is also good. The Scriptures are full of the word of God telling us what is evil and what is good. But if we take those things and avoid doing what is evil and implement the good in our lives with the assumption that then justifies us before God, we have just eaten from the ToK, the letter of the word, and not from the ToL, the Living Word.

So, while I completely understand what you are saying in your post and find much there that sounds good, when I combine it with what you APPEAR to be teaching -- that we are justified before God by faith in Christ but only with the addition of our own works, rather than by Christ alone -- then I feel that it is crossing a line from Life into death.

Notice that in the Garden, God did NOT tell Adam to eat from the ToL and then also to eat from the ToK. He simply said, DO NOT EAT from the ToK. It is CHRIST, and HIM ALONE, who is LIFE and by HIS LIFE He justifies us before the Father.

Can you see, then, where I'm having trouble with what you are proclaiming about justification by our works?

Truly, I can't tell if I'm disagreeing with what you actually believe, or only with what you're saying. As Christ lives His Life in and through us, He WILL produce His good works. We can hinder that work and not bear fruit by not abiding in Him. If this is what you actually believe, then I am in agreement with it. But if, as you say, it is OUR works and efforts which justifiy us and save us, then that is where I find disagreement with you.

[tgallison]

Tanja,

I read something recently that I think puts this into perspective. I'm going to try to summarazie it here.

In the garden of Eden, God planted 2 trees: the Tree of Life (ToL), and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (ToK). BOTH of those trees were planted there by God, yet one brought LIFE and one brought death. The ToL is Jesus. In eating of Him, we have LIFE. The ToK is anything we do that is independent of Him and when we eat of that, we die. In a sense, you could say that both of these trees are the word of God. The ToL is the Living Word, the ToK is the letter of the word.

Notice that on the ToK there is not just evil, there is also good. The Scriptures are full of the word of God telling us what is evil and what is good. But if we take those things and avoid doing what is evil and implement the good in our lives with the assumption that then justifies us before God, we have just eaten from the ToK, the letter of the word, and not from the ToL, the Living Word.

So, while I completely understand what you are saying in your post and find much there that sounds good, when I combine it with what you APPEAR to be teaching -- that we are justified before God by faith in Christ but only with the addition of our own works, rather than by Christ alone -- then I feel that it is crossing a line from Life into death.

Notice that in the Garden, God did NOT tell Adam to eat from the ToL and then also to eat from the ToK. He simply said, DO NOT EAT from the ToK. It is CHRIST, and HIM ALONE, who is LIFE and by HIS LIFE He justifies us before the Father.

Can you see, then, where I'm having trouble with what you are proclaiming about justification by our works?

Truly, I can't tell if I'm disagreeing with what you actually believe, or only with what you're saying. As Christ lives His Life in and through us, He WILL produce His good works. We can hinder that work and not bear fruit by not abiding in Him. If this is what you actually believe, then I am in agreement with it. But if, as you say, it is OUR works and efforts which justifiy us and save us, then that is where I find disagreement with you.

Pleroo

Thank you for your post.

terrell

[Jesusinmyheart]

Well Pleroo, that is where i differ, I don't think the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil was the Word, but rather it was a simple tree, on which God placed the stipulation not to touch. The fruit itself did not give knowledge, what gave knowledge of good and evil came from Adam and Eve's actions. Actions, i might add, which were not based on the Word of God, but on their own selfish desire to reach forth and claim that which they thought God was withholding from them. It led to an act of disobedience.

What i am teaching Pleroo is, that if i read the Word, and it tells me not to steal, and the Holy Spirit explains to me the many definitions of stealing as i go through the day that i may come across, and i make the decision to follow the advice of the Holy Spirit's explanation that if i take a money offering from someone, who figured we were in need and i am not in need, then i'm stealing just as much as i would be if i stole bread out of a store. If i followed the Spirit in this matter then is works, after the Word of God, after the Holy Spirit's explanation. This is walking after the Spirit according to the Word.

If the Spirit explained to me that the spirit of the law of "thou shall not steal" is stealing if i accepted that money, then not following what the Spirit told me is rejecting the Spirit's wisdom, and following the flesh instead. Can the work of my flesh be justified ?

No, because now i have sinned against God, against better judgment. Now, i don't mean to say that i'm now overall condemned because of that sin, that's only for God to judge. But if i break one Law, i'm guilty of breaking them all, because i did not act in love.
All in all, i can expect to get some sort of discipline form the Father for accepting money when i wasn't clearly in need.

I'd like to again point to the parable of the Talents, where the master gave each servant a certain amount of money. This money can be representative of spiritual wisdom, and knowledge, given by the the Holy Spirit. Those that used what they were given wisely, came back with a doubled or tripled return of using what was given to them. Not so the wicked and lazy servant who buried His wisdom and knowledge given in the ground. Therefore He did not act on what the master had taught him, and let that knowledge sit unfruitful in the ground, hidden away. This wicked and lazy servant is asked to give account, and due to his act stripped of what he had been given, and thrown out:

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Those people will not enter the kingdom.

That's what i'm trying to say.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Partaker of Christ]

Hi Tanja!

Well Pleroo, that is where i differ, I don't think the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil was the Word, but rather it was a simple tree, on which God placed the stipulation not to touch. The fruit itself did not give knowledge, what gave knowledge of good and evil came from Adam and Eve's actions. Actions, i might add, which were not based on the Word of God, but on their own selfish desire to reach forth and claim that which they thought God was withholding from them. It led to an act of disobedience.

It matters not what we think, but what the word says.

If this was just a simple tree, then what of the Tree of Life?
Of all the trees in the garden, God only mentions these two trees specifically.

What these two trees represent, is Dependence and Independence.
We either Depend upon God for all things, or we depend upon ourselves.
Before God created man, He first provided absolutely everything that man would need for life. Mans first day was rest.
In Christ Jesus, our Heavenly Father has provided everything we need. We need to depend on what He has done for us, and enter that rest. We work 'from' our rest, not 'too' our rest.
We don't have to climb up the mountain, because in Christ we are on the mountain top. We need to stand and stand firm (on the mountain top). Satan would try and tease us down the mountain. If and when we do stumble and fall, we loose our peace, we loose our joy, we loose our boldness and our strength etc: If we stand and stand firm, then that is 'overcoming'

You will notice that the Armour of God, is all to defend ourselves with. Only the Sword of the Spirit is used for both attacking and defending with.

What i am teaching Pleroo is, that if i read the Word, and it tells me not to steal, and the Holy Spirit explains to me the many definitions of stealing as i go through the day that i may come across, and i make the decision to follow the advice of the Holy Spirit's explanation that if i take a money offering from someone, who figured we were in need and i am not in need, then i'm stealing just as much as i would be if i stole bread out of a store. If i followed the Spirit in this matter then is works, after the Word of God, after the Holy Spirit's explanation. This is walking after the Spirit according to the Word.

Only God is good. If we are in Christ, then 'I' is dead. To deny thy self is to deny the 'I' It is not only our bad, but also our so called good.

Therefore recon yourselves dead. God does not repair us or patch us up. He replaces us. New wine in new wineskins.

If the Spirit explained to me that the spirit of the law of "thou shall not steal" is stealing if i accepted that money, then not following what the Spirit told me is rejecting the Spirit's wisdom, and following the flesh instead. Can the work of my flesh be justified ?

What is the 'spirit of the law'?

No, because now i have sinned against God, against better judgment. Now, i don't mean to say that i'm now overall condemned because of that sin, that's only for God to judge. But if i break one Law, i'm guilty of breaking them all, because i did not act in love.
All in all, i can expect to get some sort of discipline form the Father for accepting money when i wasn't clearly in need.

You can only break the law if you are under the law.

The old man (who is now dead) was under the law
The new man is under Grace.

(read Romans 7:1-6)
We cannot live under Law and under Grace, for to do so is committing adultery.

I'd like to again point to the parable of the Talents, where the master gave each servant a certain amount of money. This money can be representative of spiritual wisdom, and knowledge, given by the the Holy Spirit. Those that used what they were given wisely, came back with a doubled or tripled return of using what was given to them. Not so the wicked and lazy servant who buried His wisdom and knowledge given in the ground. Therefore He did not act on what the master had taught him, and let that knowledge sit unfruitful in the ground, hidden away. This wicked and lazy servant is asked to give account, and due to his act stripped of what he had been given, and thrown out:

The parable of the Talents, is about the Lord giving us gifts. These gifts are not for us to benefit personally, but they are gifts to give others. We all have at least one talent, and some have more.

If I desire to grow in Christ, just so that I can be a better Christian, then I am no better then a fool.
My desire to grow in Christ, should be first to Glorify the Father, and to benefit and build up the Body of Christ.

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Those people will not enter the kingdom.

That's what i'm trying to say.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Jesusinmyheart]

What these two trees represent, is Dependence and Independence.

Exactly... that was my point....

What i am teaching Pleroo is, that if i read the Word, and it tells me not to steal, and the Holy Spirit explains to me the many definitions of stealing as i go through the day that i may come across, and i make the decision to follow the advice of the Holy Spirit's explanation that if i take a money offering from someone, who figured we were in need and i am not in need, then i'm stealing just as much as i would be if i stole bread out of a store. If i followed the Spirit in this matter then is works, after the Word of God, after the Holy Spirit's explanation. This is walking after the Spirit according to the Word.

Only God is good. If we are in Christ, then 'I' is dead. To deny thy self is to deny the 'I' It is not only our bad, but also our so called good.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, as my above statement shows a denying of myself .... It's not about "I", i still have a free will to follow the Spirit as do you. There was nothing selfish about that message, it was an example how i could die to myself with the help of the Word and the Holy Spirit's guidance.... You entirely missed that.

What is the 'spirit of the law'?

The Spirit of the Law goes deeper than just the obvious part of the Law itself. As i explained in my prior example, for example stealing money from someone is the obvious part, but when someone offers you money because they think you are needy and you accept that, that is where the spirit of the Law comes in, when you tell that person, give it to so and so instead. The spirit of the Law ties that particular case in Law in with Love, and goes deeper.
The Holy Spirit has revealed many of such things to me. (there, i boasted in the Lord)

The parable of the Talents, is about the Lord giving us gifts. These gifts are not for us to benefit personally, but they are gifts to give others. We all have at least one talent, and some have more.

Salvation is a gift isn't it ? The one that hid his salvation in the ground to where others could not see it was called wicked and he made no return on what he was given. Not to mention he made no return even for himself. He returned to the master with the same amount of what was given to him in the beginning, not glorifying his master at all.
The Master even told him if he had at least taken what he was given to the bankers....
And in the end everything was taken from him, so i vehemently disagree that everyone has at least one talent, because scripture shows there are those from whom it is taken.
The parable of the Talents could be about anything, you fill in the blanks.

We cannot live under Law and under Grace, for to do so is committing adultery.

I don't live under the Law, but i establish it with God's guidance through the Holy Spirit and the Word.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

If I desire to grow in Christ, just so that I can be a better Christian, then I am no better then a fool.

What's wrong about this if i desire to be better ? Who says i desire this for selfish reasons ? Do you propose to know my heart ?
To the contrary, i desire to be better so i can glorify my Father in heaven!


Shalom,
Tanja

[Pleroo]

Tanja, I still can't quite pinpoint what I am saying that you disagree with. I thought I understood, but then you said that bit about dependence & independence being your point and that threw me off. So, let me just ask a simple multiple choice question, if that's okay with you.

Do you believe...

(*I am assuming that you believe, as I do, that the Spirit guides into truth and understanding as to what constitutes obedience and "good works" , so that is a given in either case.)


A) We are justified before God by faith in Christ along with the addition of our own efforts, obedience and works. *The outcome of the Spirit's guidance would be that you are then able to do good works and obey because you know what God expects of you.

or

B) We are justified before God by Christ alone. If we abide in Him, Christ lives His Life in and through us, and He will produce His good works (fruit) in our lives. *The outcome of the Spirit's guidance would be that you can recognize whether or not you are bearing Christ's fruit and thus be aware of whether or not you are abiding in Him.

[Jesusinmyheart]

Pleroo,

First off, thank you for your loving and patient nature, in this topic trying to understand my position.

With the two short options you give, i would have to take option A as the one most closely resembling my beliefs. And in all reality, if i do the works based on the Spirit's guidance and the Word, i produce good fruit, and therefore i/others can see that i'm abiding in Him. It's really not that much different than point B.

Let me show you stepwise how i see this process of salvation taking place:

1. God’s foreknowledge of the person (his knowing us before we were born, Rom. 8:29-20).
2. God’s marking us out ahead of time (predestination, Rom. 8:29-30).
3. The Call: as N.T. Wright calls it, “the moment when the gospel of Jesus as Lord is announced and people come to believe it and obey its summons.”
4. Justification (initial): God declares that we are (a) right with him/pardoned/declared innocent and (b) we have joined the covenant family of God (Jew and Gentile).
5. Sanctification: the ongoing process of growing in righteousness and good works in the Spirit’s power.
6. Justification (final): God’s final judgment, which is by works. If our works prove our faith, we are finally saved. (1Co 3:12 - 17 emphasis mine)
7. Glorification: resurrected and made perfect like Yeshua.

Taken from: http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2...justification/

Point B isn't wrong in my opinion either, but i think it fails to lay the responsibility into the believer's hand to follow in Yeshua's footsteps and be His disciple by works. If you have the Word in you and you chose to follow the guidance of the Spirit then His Word abides in you. It's so easy and IMO a fallacy to think God is in you and wait on Him to do anything about your sinful nature.. (and just mentally think you've done your part, because "oh, can't do anything about my flesh")
We are called to deny our flesh (ourselves/sinfull nature) We are called to die to our flesh (ourselves/sinful nature)
We are called to run hard to win a price, this requires unceasing training like an athlete.... this is work, hard work. But it's godly work. Yes we all fall short and this is precisely why we need Yeshua. God knows our hearts, and that means if He sees us trying, and running hard according to the Word/Spirit, we will receive mercy through Yeshua and be washed clean. God is longsuffering and patient, but He will not be mocked. If someone tramples the blood of Yeshua underfoot, that is akin to mocking God, this person will not receive mercy.

Finally, let me quote a friend, who came up with a heavy two sentence midrash (Thought):

Justification gets you out of Egypt. Sanctification gets Egypt out of you.

I hope that clears it up Pleroo

Shalom,
Tanja

[Pleroo]

Pleroo,

First off, thank you for your loving and patient nature, in this topic trying to understand my position.

With the two short options you give, i would have to take option A as the one most closely resembling my beliefs.

Good! I think I understand pretty much exactly where you stand then and I appreciate you indulging me by choosing between the 2 choices I put out. I realized neither one could fully capture all the nuances of your beliefs, but it's a good start, I think. My responses to the rest of your post are an attempt to explain why our beliefs, then, are at odds with each other.

And in all reality, if i do the works based on the Spirit's guidance and the Word, i produce good fruit, and thuse i can see that i'm abiding in Him. It's really not that much different than point B.

Here, of course, I disagree. They are at completely different ends of the spectrum, I believe. The outcome outwardly may look deceptively similar (and that is why I believe it's taken me so much time to see clearly where you stand) but, in the heart of the matter, they are diametrically opposed to each other.

One says it is my life, lived with God's help, that is being saved.

The other says it is the Life of Christ in me which saves me, though I lose my life in the process.

Let me show you stepwise how i see this process of salvation taking place:


Quote:
1. God’s foreknowledge of the person (his knowing us before we were born, Rom. 8:29-20).
2. God’s marking us out ahead of time (predestination, Rom. 8:29-30).
3. The Call: as N.T. Wright calls it, “the moment when the gospel of Jesus as Lord is announced and people come to believe it and obey its summons.”
4. Justification (initial): God declares that we are (a) right with him/pardoned/declared innocent and (b) we have joined the covenant family of God (Jew and Gentile).
5. Sanctification: the ongoing process of growing in righteousness and good works in the Spirit’s power.
6. Justification (final): God’s final judgment, which is by works. If our works prove our faith, we are finally saved. (1Co 3:12 - 17 emphasis mine)
7. Glorification: resurrected and made perfect like Yeshua.
Taken from: http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2...justification/


Point B isn't wrong in my opinion either, but i think it fails to lay the responsibility of the believer to follow in Yeshua's footsteps and be His disciple by works. If you have the Word in you and you chose to follow the guidance of the Spirit then His word abides in you. It's so easy and IMO a fallacy to think God is in you and wait on Him to do anything about your sinful nature.. We are called to deny our flesh (ourselves/sinfull nature) We are called to die to our flesh (ourselves/sinful nature)

Yes, we are called to deny our SELVES -- not just our vices, our pet sins, but our very SELVES, all that we are in and of ourSELVES. Anything we do, be it bad or "good", if it is of ourSELVES then it is not of God. We are to lay down OUR life in order that the LIFE of Christ may live in us.

You say it is wrong to wait on God to do anything about our sinful nature, but this is exactly what we must do. As His Life grows and matures within us, then the Light of that Life overcomes our darkness. Salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification) is of the Lord. Period. Not of the Lord and of ourSELVES.

We are called to run hard to win a price, this requires unceasing training like an athlete.... this is work, hard work. But it's godly work. Yes we all fall short and this is precisely why we need Yeshua. God knows our hearts, and that means if He sees us trying, and running hard according to the Word/Spirit, we will receive mercy through Yeshua and be washed clean. God is longsuffering and patient, but He will not be mocked. If someone tramples the blood of Yeshua underfoot, that is akin to mocking God, this person will not receive mercy.


Finally, let me quote a friend, who came up with a heavy two sentence midrash (Thought):

Quote:
Justification gets you out of Egypt. Sanctification gets Egypt out of you.

I appreciate the thought and agree with it, but the Bible is quite clear that it is God who does the sanctifying, not we ourselves. The battle is not ours, but God's.

I hope that clears it up Pleroo

Yes, it definitely does clear it up for me, Tanja. Thanks very much for investing the time and effort in explaining yourself.

[Teke]

Glad you understand Pleroo. Because I still don't see how some see themselves in a covenant (like Tanja does) and others in a dispensation of grace (IOW relaxing of the law).