Old Testament salvation

[Jesusinmyheart]

Partaker,
you're not teaching me anything that i don't already know, and i clearly disagree with how you interpret these things. Suffice to say, that i believe that Yeshua has me covered and that my robes are washed clean where i fall short and transgress the Law.

Let me address one scripture verse you have posted

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.(Correct, the Spirit of the Lord the Holy Spirit is the one helping us understand, i never denied that.)
Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. (Do you know what or who Zerubabel represents ? It's listed in Strongs as sown in Babylon.)
Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. (Notice, Zerubabels hands have laid the foundation, and his hands also shall finish it!)

Let me show you something for your consideration. And i mean really think about it for a while, and not reject it right out of hand:

This is a small but beautiful tidbit i found today on Faith, ("emunah" in the OT)

The outcome of this study, in the hearts of those who study, is emunah, faithful obedience. Normally translated as faith, Emunah has a dual meaning. Etymologically, it is related to the word meaning to train or accustom oneself, and also to the word for power and strength. This definition is very misleading! The basis of Emunah is knowledge! We start with knowledge and then when we are faithfully obedient to that knowledge, we have emunah, we have faith. Emunah is our faithful obedience to a knowledge. Something you connect to so thoroughly that you would give your life for it. Emunah must be the same as the knowledge that you exist. After this is acquired, then one must be faithfully obedient to that knowledge despite the influence of the lower self. The pinnacle of Emunah is to connect with knowledge so thoroughly that you can experience it’s future pleasures, now. Emunah is a zeraim, a seed. Just as you know, without any doubt, that a seed will produce a plant with fruit, if it is properly cared for, so emunah is something you know. It is something that is certain.

So you can see that Faith is not something that one just has in their minds, but that it comes out in works, and if you don't have works then where is your faith ?

Emunah leads you to Godly works, this is Faith in it's completion. Faith without works is dead, IOW it's not completed. It is only completed by works, this means getting down to the nitty gritty and denying your flesh and conforming it to do what you would not do if it weren't for that knowledge that the Word and the Holy Spirit have revealed to you. This is dying to your flesh as you walk after the Spirit in a very physical way, just as Yeshua became a physical being, denied His flesh when He knew what was to come before he was arrested, and in a very physical way followed out the word written in scripture, that He submitted to the authorities and rulers, and spoke not a word like a lamb led to the slaughter.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

He submitted Himself in a very physical way, and died a gruesome physical death, for without it we could not be redeemed, He laid down His life in love for us.

Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.

Faith without works is dead, and dead faith gets you where ?

I have no beef with the scriptures you posted, but i have a totally different understanding of them as the Holy Spirit showed me, and believe you me i tested the Spirit, and studied all of this out in countless hours for over a year. And everything i was shown lines up with the Word.

Abraham is my father, as is Jacob and Isaac, they did their works in faith....or do you think Sarah conceived without Abraham laying with her in faith that God's word was true and what He said would happen ? We know there's only one immaculate conception in scriptures. So what would have happened had Abraham not done his part in faith and had not had sexual relations with her ? He already screwed up when he depended on himself sleeping with Hagar as per recommendation of his wife, that was one unfaithful act i might add! She and you and i paid/pay the price of that decision made independently, this was truly works done apart from God!

I can tell you partaker, my mind is made up, with what i have been shown by the Holy Spirit, and have studied out with the Word and Holy Spirit combined has led me to the conclusion that this is the way to go. This is based on my personal relationship with God and the Holy Spirit, and the Word who is Yeshua. You're free to disagree.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

[drew]

Hello JIMH (and others):

I repost what you posted as follows re the "overall process":

1. God’s foreknowledge of the person (his knowing us before we were born, Rom. 8:29-20).
2. God’s marking us out ahead of time (predestination, Rom. 8:29-30).
3. The Call: as N.T. Wright calls it, “the moment when the gospel of Jesus as Lord is announced and people come to believe it and obey its summons.”
4. Justification (initial): God declares that we are (a) right with him/pardoned/declared innocent and (b) we have joined the covenant family of God (Jew and Gentile).
5. Sanctification: the ongoing process of growing in righteousness and good works in the Spirit’s power.
6. Justification (final): God’s final judgment, which is by works. If our works prove our faith, we are finally saved. (1Co 3:12 - 17 emphasis mine)
7. Glorification: resurrected and made perfect like Yeshua.

I have studied NT Wright quite a bit and I think he is on the right track when he makes the above points (I assume these points are Wright's in origin - it certainly sounds like him).

I think that we need to have a theology of justification that makes sense of all the relevant texts - including the ones (like Romans 2) that make it appear that salvation is a matter of works. Many view Romans 2 as Paul writing about a theoretical, non-existent category of persons who would be justified by their works if that were possible, with Paul believing that it actually is not possible. I think that is an extraordinarily contrived position to take. Paul nowhere hints that in Romans 2 he is doing anything except telling it like it is - we will indeed be justified by works at the end.

If one says that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2, the sky is the limit - one can relativize almost any text if one takes such liberties. I really would ask those who think Paul is talking about a non-existent category of persons in Romans 2 to explain how they justify (no pun intended) this extraordinary interpretation of the text. What specifically gives one cause to assume that he does not mean what he says?

If your answer is that elsewhere he teaches "justificiation by faith alone", I suggest you need to re-examine your fundamental methodology. If we are to say that all Scripture is authoritative, any moves that essentially discount entire teachings need to be viewed with extreme suspicion. I think we simply cannot have a theology that requires us to discount Romans 2 (and other texts) as not meaning what they say. We are better to accept them at their face value and see if we cannot develop a theology that respects them as well as all the other relevant texts.

I think Wright succeeds in doing this as per the quoted material above.

[Toolman]

Hello JIMH (and others):

I repost what you posted as follows re the "overall process":



I have studied NT Wright quite a bit and I think he is on the right track when he makes the above points (I assume these points are Wright's in origin - it certainly sounds like him).

I think that we need to have a theology of justification that makes sense of all the relevant texts - including the ones (like Romans 2) that make it appear that salvation is a matter of works. Many view Romans 2 as Paul writing about a theoretical, non-existent category of persons who would be justified by their works if that were possible, with Paul believing that it actually is not possible. I think that is an extraordinarily contrived position to take. Paul nowhere hints that in Romans 2 he is doing anything except telling it like it is - we will indeed be justified by works at the end.

If one says that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2, the sky is the limit - one can relativize almost any text if one takes such liberties. I really would ask those who think Paul is talking about a non-existent category of persons in Romans 2 to explain how they justify (no pun intended) this extraordinary interpretation of the text. What specifically gives one cause to assume that he does not mean what he says?

If your answer is that elsewhere he teaches "justificiation by faith alone", I suggest you need to re-examine your fundamental methodology. If we are to say that all Scripture is authoritative, any moves that essentially discount entire teachings need to be viewed with extreme suspicion. I think we simply cannot have a theology that requires us to discount Romans 2 (and other texts) as not meaning what they say. We are better to accept them at their face value and see if we cannot develop a theology that respects them as well as all the other relevant texts.

I think Wright succeeds in doing this as per the quoted material above.

You can't just read Romans 2 in some type of vacuum. You must understand it within the continuing context and Paul makes that context abundantly clear:

Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[ 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

N.T. Wright's new perspective is no new perspective at all. It is the same perspective of the Roman Catholic church during the reformation.

Here are the anathema's that Rome proclaimed at the Counsil of Trent against anyone who said that men were justified by trusting in Jesus Christ alone, apart from any works we do but simply based on His atoning work of death and resurrection:

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone (supra, chapters 7-8), meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost (Rom. 5:5), and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy (supra, chapter 9), which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works (ibid., chapter 10), but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.



Nothing new here.. same contention.

Is a person justified before God based simply on trusting in the atoning work of Jesus Christ alone, His death and resurrection as the only thing that puts us in a right position with God

OR

Is a person justified before God by both the person of Jesus Christ and something else (works, Law, obedience, etc.).

Protestants and evangelicals have historically believed the former but in these latter times some are turning to a works-based, law-justifying "gospel".

But it's nothing new, man has been trying to justify himself before God by doing good works since the beginning of the fall. Every major religion of the world preaches that very message. But the Gospel will forever stand in contrast to that message, because it is supernaturally different and foriegn to the heart of man.

[Jesusinmyheart]

Toolman,

IMO it is very shallow to read Romans the way you show here, without considering the contradictory verses, instead of asking God for wisdom and understanding to hammer out the truth. Sorry to be so brash, but that is my opinion.

Is a person justified before God based simply on trusting in the atoning work of Jesus Christ alone, His death and resurrection as the only thing that puts us in a right position with God.

When one turns to God for the first time, yes, that's what happens, the slate is wiped clean and you're reborn.
But, as a reborn human you will continue to make mistakes, and your walk is in need of Instructions which you will find largely in the OT, with the added insight in the NT.

To return to your quote TM, this is a picture of a Christian that takes no responsibility for their own actions, and choices. Well God was supposed to do all the work....
The Work God has set in motion for us to do, is that He enables us, and it;s our responsibility like seen in the parable of talents to take charge and earn a return.

I completely agree with your second statement:

Is a person justified before God by both the person of Jesus Christ and something else (works, Law, obedience, etc.)

As said before Faith is only completed when you chose to do the will of God.

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

If faith is incomplete, i shudder to think what will happen at judgment.

Of course i know there are more here that disagree with me than those that have ears to hear, but that's nothing new either. When Yeshua was here and dwelt with us there were only a fraction of people who followed Him.

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

God will do it all...... and we can sit back


Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

God enables us, and the choice to follow Him is up to us, denying our flesh is hard work.



Shalom,
Tanja

[drew]

Hi Toolman:

I think you still need to explain how you simply dismiss Romans 2 as not being a statement of the way things are. You seem to argue that because of texts like this:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

we therefore relativize (do not take seriously) texts like this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

and

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

It really does seem that you "choose" to accept one set of texts and then simply dismiss as "hypothetical" those texts that seem to present a competing position.

My whole point is that the fact that one does this suggest that there is something wrong in the exegesis.

Why couldn't I take the Romans 2 texts as primary and simply argue that Romans 3:20 is describing a non-existent category of persons? Something is amiss when we are forced to essentially dismiss entire chunks of text, unless there is a justification for this other than the reason that other texts conflict with it.

I suggest that the view that NT Wright proposes honours all texts. Now how he explains how Romans 2 and all the "we are justified by faith alone" texts cohere together is not something one can explain in a single post.

But I just do not think that Paul is such a bad writer that he would write all that stuff in Romans 2 about justification by works if he were intending us to not take it at face value.

Now with respect to Romans 3:20, I trust that you realize that Paul is not saying we are not justified by "doing good works". What he is really saying is that we are not justified by following Torah in an "as if by works and not by faith" kind of way. I can defend this interpretation if you wish.

[Toolman]

Toolman,

IMO it is very shallow to read Romans the way you show here, without considering the contradictory verses, instead of asking God for wisdom and understanding to hammer out the truth. Sorry to be so brash, but that is my opinion.

Tanja,

I appreciate your opinion but make no mistake. I have neither come at the text in a shallow manner nor see any contradiction whatsoever in the text.
As far as asking God for wisdom and understanding, I have and He has given it. Just because you cannot see His wisdom in justifying man by Christ alone does not mean it is not His wisdom. His wisdom is contrary and offensive to our works-oriented sin nature.

When one turns to God for the first time, yes, that's what happens, the slate is wiped clean and you're reborn.
But, as a reborn human you will continue to make mistakes, and your walk is in need of Instructions which you will find largely in the OT, with the added insight in the NT.

I do not, nor have I ever disagreed with the sanctifying work of Christ in the believer.

Has nothing to do with our sin being forgiven though. Only the blood of Christ and His ressurection alone is what does that. You, like the roman church, are confusing justification and sanctification as the reformers pointed out several hundred years ago. Scripture makes a clear distinction.

To return to your quote TM, this is a picture of a Christian that takes no responsibility for their own actions, and choices. Well God was supposed to do all the work....
The Work God has set in motion for us to do, is that He enables us, and it;s our responsibility like seen in the parable of talents to take charge and earn a return.

Tanja, you cannot earn salvation and that is the whole point of the Gospel.

And not a single time have I stated that a believer is not to have works, is not to be responsible for their actions or choices. You cannot quote me one place making any such statement.

What I have stated is what scripture states. That a person is justified before God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, apart from any works.

I completely agree with your second statement:

As said before Faith is only completed when you chose to do the will of God.

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

If faith is incomplete, i shudder to think what will happen at judgment.

Nevertheless, it is our faith, not our works, which justify us before God.

Our works may be evidence of our faith but they are not what justify us before God. Paul cannot be any clearer on that.

Of course i know there are more here that disagree with me than those that have ears to hear, but that's nothing new either. When Yeshua was here and dwelt with us there were only a fraction of people who followed Him.

Oh, I think you will find a multitude who will absolutely agree with you. For sure every major world religion will agree that God excepts us because we are good and do good things. The roman catholic church will definitely agree with you. Our flesh, and its pride, leads us that direction every time.

The Gospel is contrary to that and destoys that fleshly pride. Nothing we can do to earn salvation. Its free to all who trust in Jesus Christ alone, apart from what they do.

That's why it, the Gospel, creates a heart of gratitude as opposed to a heart that feels like it must do something to earn God's favor.

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

God will do it all...... and we can sit back

Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

God enables us, and the choice to follow Him is up to us, denying our flesh is hard work.

Shalom,
Tanja

You are confused.

You believe that justification by faith in Christ alone equates to don't do anything.

It doesn't. In fact it empowers you to actually do something without trying to merit God's favor.

Justification by faith in Christ alone frees the one "doing" to do it from a pure heart that isn't attempting to get God to accept them but realizes that God accepts them already, because of Christ alone, and now because of gratitude for what God has done the believer "does" things out of a pure heart of thankfulness... not a heart trying to earn merit.

[Toolman]

Now with respect to Romans 3:20, I trust that you realize that Paul is not saying we are not justified by "doing good works". What he is really saying is that we are not justified by following Torah in an "as if by works and not by faith" kind of way. I can defend this interpretation if you wish.

So, in Romans 3:20 he is saying we aren't justified by "torah" but in Romans 2:13-14 he's saying we are justified by "torah".

Paul's argument in Romans chapters 1, 2 and 3 is absolutely clear to me and that is to reveal that all men are under the guilt of the Law and have fallen short of God's glory.

And then to reveal that we are not justified before God based on Law (works) but simply based on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone, apart from our works.

[Teke]

Isn't the law matter more of a salvation matter and the justification or righteousness part a matter of worship. It seems to me that the two are being lumped together.

[Jesusinmyheart]

Ah well Toolman,

I never said i was earning my salvation thru works, but that works on the other hand are a proof of faith. And without Faith it is impossible to please God. And God will not give to salvation to someone He is not pleased with.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

I'm sorry Toolman, but i'm not confused at all. I see so much in scripture revealed that while Salvation comes through Christ, one must prove worthy of it. And the best way to do so is through completed Faith shown by Godly works, which is the bearing of Fruits.

I have never said that Yeshua is not who justifies me. But to stay grafted in one has to prove worthy and produce Godly fruit. Just because God prunes you and does the trimming (which are the times God disciplines and teaches you through the Holy Spirit and by what you go through in life) doesn't mean that you have nothing to do. You still have choices to make and to overcome, these are good works. Granted i trust in God in all things, and this is the only area where i don't do anything, but when God teaches me a lesson, or shows me something, i respond to it: Spiritually, mentally, and finally physically.


Shalom my friend,
Tanja

[Toolman]

Ah well Toolman,

I never said i was earning my salvation thru works,

Sure you did. Don't be shy about it

Here is one example.

To return to your quote TM, this is a picture of a Christian that takes no responsibility for their own actions, and choices. Well God was supposed to do all the work....
The Work God has set in motion for us to do, is that He enables us, and it;s our responsibility like seen in the parable of talents to take charge and earn a return.

but that works on the other hand are a proof of faith.

You have not stated that works are a proof of faith but that a combination of faith and works is what justifies man before God.

Works being a proof of faith is scriptural and something I can 100% agree with.
But those works have never and never will justify us before God. Our works do not cause God to forgive our sin... only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that.

And without Faith it is impossible to please God. And God will not give to salvation to someone He is not pleased with.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

I'm sorry Toolman, but i'm not confused at all. I see so much in scripture revealed that while Salvation comes through Christ, one must prove worthy of it. And the best way to do so is through completed Faith shown by Godly works, which is the bearing of Fruits.

I simply stated that you were confused that the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone somehow indicates that someone does not manifest works in their life. This is where your confusion is because the doctrine does not teach this.

I have never said that Yeshua is not who justifies me. But to stay grafted in one has to prove worthy and produce Godly fruit. Just because God prunes you and does the trimming (which are the times God disciplines and teaches you through the Holy Spirit and by what you go through in life) doesn't mean that you have nothing to do.

Never said we didn't have anything to do. Once again you are confused and you will not find or be able to post a single instance of me making any such claim. I challenge you to do so.

I have simply stated that a person is justified before God by faith in Christ alone, apart from works. I have never stated that the one justified has nothing to do. Just that what they do doesn't justify them.

You still have choices to make and to overcome, these are good works. Granted i trust in God in all things, and this is the only area where i don't do anything, but when God teaches me a lesson, or shows me something, i respond to it: Spiritually, mentally, and finally physically.

Like I said I have never denied the sanctifying work that the Spirit does in our life. But you are confusing justification and sanctification. They are distinct from one another and serve different purposes. You are blurring the line between the two and confusing one with the other.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Grace and peace to you also

[Jesusinmyheart]

You know, as i was thinking about this, i realized one thing:

If God is doing everything, then why on earth did He even bother to create us to be His companions ?

Psa 55:12 For it is not an enemy who taunts me-- then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me-- then I could hide from him.
Psa 55:13 But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend.
Psa 55:14 We used to take sweet counsel together; within God's house we walked in the throng.




Main Entry:
1com·pan·ion Listen to the pronunciation of 1companion
Pronunciation:
\kəm-ˈpan-yən\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
Middle English compainoun, from Anglo-French cumpaing, cumpaignun, from Late Latin companion-, companio, from Latin com- + panis bread, food — more at food
Date:
13th century

1: one that accompanies another : comrade, associate; also : one that keeps company with another2obsolete : rascal3 a: one that is closely connected with something similar b: one employed to live with and serve another4: a celestial body that appears close to another but that may or may not be associated with it in space

God serves us, and has served us, and we are to serve Him.

Again, Faith without works is dead, and without Faith it is impossible to please Him.

If God warns us to not give to pigs what is holy and throw our pearls before pigs, how do you then suppose He gives His precious Son to those who trample Him underfoot and reject him and continue to do evil ?

Shalom,
Tanja

[drew]

So, in Romans 3:20 he is saying we aren't justified by "torah" but in Romans 2:13-14 he's saying we are justified by "torah". .

I understand why there appears to be a problem here. But I suggest that there is no contradiction and there is a way to see our way through all this.

I tried to choose my words carefully in my post when I asserted "we are not justified by following Torah in an 'as if by works and not by faith' kind of way". This qualifier is extremely important and that is why I included it.

I think (following Wright) that we need to take Paul seriously in Romans 2 - we will indeed be justified by our works at the time of judgement. As much as this places a burden on me to square this with other teachings, I think that you are placed in a much more problematic position by what appears to be an outright denial that Paul means what he says in Romans 2. I see no reason at all to justify your conclusion that he is speaking about a non-existent category of people here.

I think Wright argues compellingly that while we are indeed justified by works at the time of judgement, we also know that if we place faith in Christ in the present, God will give us His Spirit, which then assures that we will indeed "pass the works" test. So, without having to resort to the kind of "let's just assume Romans 2 is a tangent about a non-existent class of persons" strategy that many resort to, Wright provides a model that works with all the relevant texts.

I believe the basic idea is this: Paul never says we are justified by keeping Torah in a kind of mechanical "not rooted in faith" manner. I believe that you think I am "forced" into a position (by my take on Romans 2) that we are justified by keeping the "letter" of Torah. But I do not think I am. I think that Paul argues that the essence of keeping Torah was always rooted in faith- that there is a "faith-based" way of keeping Torah and "works-based" way of keeping Torah. It is this distinction that allows me to evade the contradiction that you ascribe to me in your quoted words above.

So I think Paul is saying this: we are justified by faith and not by keeping Torah in a "technical, legalistic, not grounded in faith" sort of way. But, we are indeed justified at the end by our "works". How is this seeming contradiction resolved? By the action of the Spirit which is given to the believer and ensures that, at the last day, we will indeed be found to have perservered "in doing good".

Two final comments: I think that if one wanted to criticize this view I am presenting (not really my own in origin of course), the main objection would be that it is extremely subtle - it requires that we think carefully about a distinction between keeping Torah "as if by works" versus "keeping Torah as if "by faith". I think that this is the distinction Paul intends to draw in this from Romans 9:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it

I agree that the view I am presenting seems overly subtle. But I still would prefer to that to what I see as a wholesale rejection of Romans 2 (and some of Jesus' teachings as well) about how we are justified by what we do. A subtle solution is better than a non-workable one.

[Jesusinmyheart]

Toolman,

To return to your quote TM, this is a picture of a Christian that takes no responsibility for their own actions, and choices. Well God was supposed to do all the work....
The Work God has set in motion for us to do, is that He enables us, and it;s our responsibility like seen in the parable of talents to take charge and earn a return.

you forget that i stated that this work has to be in line with the Word and the Holy Spirit, and if you're going to quote me here and there out of several posts i made you're going to rip things out of context. Doing what the Word says to do is completed faith which is the Word in you doing this work, which is what justifies you, It isn't my own self that makes this happen, the only thing that comes into this equation is that i contribute my choice to do right by God.

If you understand this to be works earning salvation then you're not getting the picture i have.

Works being a proof of faith is scriptural and something I can 100% agree with.
But those works have never and never will justify us before God. Our works do not cause God to forgive our sin... only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that.

Ok, Toolman, why would God forgive us works that are in line with Him ? It's the shortcomings despite our trying hard to run the race which God will forgive us.
God has never forgiven rebellious sin done in defiance without at least some sort of punishment or consequences. The lazy wicked servant also falls into this category. There is a price to be paid, whether that be His, or ours, and we all know ours is not enough.

Like I said I have never denied the sanctifying work that the Spirit does in our life. But you are confusing justification and sanctification. They are distinct from one another and serve different purposes. You are blurring the line between the two and confusing one with the other.

I'm not so sure that i'm confusing them, but is it possible you are ?

Do me a favor, please define both terms for me then, cause i'd like to know what your understanding is of both terms. Maybe give some examples how these terms apply.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Toolman]

Toolman,

you forget that i stated that this work has to be in line with the Word and the Holy Spirit, and if you're going to quote me here and there out of several posts i made you're going to rip things out of context. Doing what the Word says to do is completed faith which is the Word in you doing this work, which is what justifies you, It isn't my own self that makes this happen, the only thing that comes into this equation is that i contribute my choice to do right by God.

I haven't forgotten anything but only can see what I read you saying and you have consistently stated that we are not justified by faith in Christ alone but by a combination of faith and works we earn something from God.

Paul states clearly against that position in Romans 4:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

You are saying that we are saved by God because of a earning not because of grace.

If you understand this to be works earning salvation then you're not getting the picture i have.

I understand it for what it is. All I can do is read what you state and IMO you have been very clear on your position.

Ok Toolman, why would God forgive us works that are in line with Him?

I'm not sure what that means. God forgives sin.

It;s the shortcomings despite our trying hard to run the race which God will forgive us.

Christ forgives all sin, I don't see His atonement as somehow limited to only our shortcomings despite our best efforts.

God has never forgiven rebellious sin done in defiance without at least some sort of punishment or consequences. There is a price to be paid, whether that be His, or ours.

If He paid the price for our sin then that is forgiveness

I'm not so sure that i'm confusing them, but is it possible you are ?

Do me a favor, please define both terms for me then, cause i'd like to know what your understanding is of both terms.

Shalom,
Tanja

Salvation is made up of 3 distinct, yet inseparable events:

Justification: - We are delivered from the Penalty of sin. The act of God forgiving ALL our sin and lawless deeds and declaring us righteous. This is what puts us in a right standing with God, to be righteous. God declares us just as pure, holy and righteous as Jesus Christ himself because of the sacrifice of Christ. This is also called "imputed righteousness". God gives Christ's righteousness to us, we do not earn it. This act happens at the very moment a person places faith in Christ(trust). All that is required to justify a person before God is to trust in the person and work of Christ alone.
Also called "positional sanctification".

Sanctification: - We are being delivered from the Power of sin. This is the process, in this life, of being conformed to the image of Christ. We come to realize more and more just how sinful and in need of a savior we are. God begins to work in our will to show us our great need for Him and to change our will to follow and obey Him. This is a daily process for the duration of earthly life.
Also called "progressive sanctification".

Glorification: - We will be delivered from the Presence of sin.This is the final part of salvation when God will complete redemption of His believers and actually remove sin and satan, establish His everlasting kingdom and resurrect the saints to their new bodies.
Also called "completed sanctification".

[Pleroo]

An example in the New Testament of the application of lenient economy, or "economy according to leniency", is found in Acts chapter 15, where the Apostles decided to limit the number and degree of Jewish observances that would be required of Gentile converts. An example in the New Testament of the application of strict economy, or "economy according to exactness (or, strictness, preciseness) [akribeia]", may be seen in Acts 16:3, when St. Paul set aside the usual rule, just mentioned, and decided to circumcise Timothy, whose father was a gentile, in order to placate certain Jewish Christians. In both instances, economy was exercised in order to facilitate the salvation of some of the parties involved.
<snip>


I hope I have clarified this for you and JIMH. If so, then we should better understand one another, and the scriptures.

_________

Teke, as usual, most of what you're writing is beyond me, so I'll just focus on what I'm getting out of it. If I'm wrong about what you're saying, you can correct me.

What I'm seeing, again, is this idea of leniency. That God looks at us in our weakness and chooses to lower the bar for us, bring righteousness within our grasp. And, hey, if it's still too difficult for us, no worries, because He knows we tried really hard so He'll be even more lenient with us.

Actually, that's what I'm getting from Tanja too. Just try, and try harder and that is how we'll please God and secure His leniency toward us.

Here's the thing -- I don't want leniency. I want salvation! And that is what the Father has promised me in Jesus Christ. In HIM I have righteousness that has not been watered down to accomodate my weakness. His Spirit has come into union with my spirit, making me a new creature. And His Spirit within me is overcoming all within me that is unholy. I have the expectation of total and complete salvation as I abide in Christ, not just a pat on the head and shallow assurances that I tried hard so I'm not going to hell.

That isn't salvation. God, in His mercy, will not leave me as I am, nor leave me to secure my own half-baked salvation from sin. CHRIST'S righteousness within me overcoming everything that separates me from Him -- that is salvation.