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Thread: The Law ( 10 commandments)

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    I just wanted to address a couple of things you posted so I pulled out those little snips. First, I can only speak for myself, but I have never once eluded that we are to 'get into heaven' by keeping the commandments. God forbid! May no one ever be deceived into thinking this! I do not and could not do ANYTHING to earn my way to glory. As scripture says that is a free gift. Remembering the Sabbath has nothing to do with my salvation. I have been made righteous by the blood of Messiah alone! I just wanted to share that so you would understand that keeping Sabbath in no way means rejecting the free gift of salvation through the blood of Yeshua.

    Next, I'd like comment on your assertion that only 9 of the 10 commandments being repeated in the Apostolic Scriptures. I disagree and believe that all 10 commandments were confirmed by Messiah.

    Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

    Mark 2:27 - And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

    The Sabbath, according to Yeshua, was made FOR us, so I have no trouble enjoying this free gift, as well!

    God Bless!
    I by no means was trying to imply that you said we have to 'work' to earn salvation. I am sorry if it came across that way.
    I just want to stress that 'works' or keeping the 10 commandments have nothing to do with us being saved. It would take away what Jesus did for us on the cross. We are to seek Jesus, not the law, and that includes the Sabbath. We are not required to keep the sabbath. That does not mean that one cannot give a day or week or year to the Lord, but we are not required to for righteousness.

    Peter had the same problem even after he knew the truth. That is why Paul opposed Peter because Peter was falling back to the demands of the Law. If we are bound to the Law, Paul's preaching would have made no sense.

    It is through Jesus Christ alone that we should seek, not the demands of the Law. Through Jesus we are righteous and are given new desires to please God.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnfx View Post
    Peter had the same problem even after he knew the truth. That is why Paul opposed Peter because Peter was falling back to the demands of the Law. If we are bound to the Law, Paul's preaching would have made no sense.

    It is through Jesus Christ alone that we should seek, not the demands of the Law. Through Jesus we are righteous and are given new desires to please God.
    Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

    Galatians 2:11-12
    11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

    Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

    God Bless!
    II Timothy 2:15
    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Read My Testimony Visit Our Website

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

    Galatians 2:11-12
    11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

    Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

    God Bless!
    Thank you for pointing that out to me regarding Peter as I am still learning something new everyday. I will seek more in to that topic as it interests me.

    On a different note. What I strive to do from my struggles is to help people try to understand that the Law only shows how bad and evil we humans actually are. Again, the Law is the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Whether it be the oral law or the Ten Commandments, we cannot be made righteous by the Law. We rest in Christ and if we are in Christ we have been given a new heart with new desires - to follow the commands of Christ After one gives his life to Christ, we have a new will to serve God by following the commands of Christ. It is very important to understand that we are no longer in bondage to the old covenant law and are now under the new covenant Law in Christ. The 10 commandments only leads us to Christ, which is where we find righteousness. The sermon on the mount is a good description of how a follower of Christ should strive to live.
    I want to help others understand that focusing so much on the law instead of Jesus actually can actually separate us from Jesus because we seek to please God by means of the Law instead of focusing out life on Jesus and his finished work. This happened to me regarding the Sabbath and I focused so much of my attention on the Sabbath, I forgot what Jesus actually did for me and saught to please God by keeping the Sabbath.

    My Sabbath rest is in Jesus Christ, who finished the work for us all.

  4. #19
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    The Law is the Word of God as much as Yeshua in the flesh ever was. The only difference is that the Word in the flesh provided a form of atonement, which is the covenant display of God's love for mankind, given to any obedient child of God who tries to please His/Her Father despite his/her faults.

    Shalom,
    Tanja
    Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
    2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
    If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
    http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/




  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    Thank you everyone for your help in this matter, it seems there is a definete divide here or no coming together or agreement on the matter to put it another way. I'm in the same position as before as i have tried to research scripture and can find arguments for both sides !

    What do you do to keep Sabbath on friday evening to saturday ? i like your way of thinking ! keeping the Sabbath and still going to church but what do you do ?
    Hi Nobunaga!

    I went through a period of searching on the same issue, some years ago. The bottom line for me was realizing that the Sabbath is specifically about having a rest! Since then I have observed over and over in my own life and in the lives of my children and friends, how important it is to have a day of rest. God's design for our lives really is the best design.

    While you are doing your Biblical research, look for the word "rest" and meditate on it. Especially read what Hebrews has to say about rest. The best answer you will get from anyone will be the answer God gives you from His word. Pray first, then study. Then follow the pattern,

    Listen (to what God has said to you)
    Meditate (on what He means by what He said)
    Obey (what you have come to understand.)

    When you have perfect peace about it, you will know that you have found the right answer.
    Blessings,

    Road Warrior


    Proverbs 4:23
    23 Guard your heart above all else,
    for it determines the course of your life.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    Actually, Peter's problem was not that he was as you imply 'falling back to the demands of the Law' OF MOSES. No, to the contrary. What Peter was falling back to was the demands of the oral law; the traditions of man that the religious leaders had allowed to supercede the word of God. My assertion is not based on some sort of feeling I have, but is rather based on scripture both Hebrew and Apostolic. Let's analyze, shall we?

    Galatians 2:11-12
    11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

    Now, look at what Peter stopped doing. He stopped EATING with Gentiles. Does the Law of God forbid Jews from EATING with those of a different nationality? Not at all! No where in the Hebrew scriptures does it say or even imply that there is a problem eating a meal with someone from a different nationality or even religion. What 'law' could Paul have been rebuking Peter for returning to? It was the oral traditions of man that Orthodox Jews still live under today. Yeshua Himself rebuked the religious leaders for setting aside the commandments of God to uphold the traditions of man. It is very important to understand the language even today calls those oral traditions 'the law'. Understanding the difference between the oral tradition (law) and the word of God scriptural (Law) is key in understand how it is that Paul writes both negatively about the 'law' and positively about the Law.

    God Bless!
    I have come across another post and wanted to share. I think it is actually unclear of all that Peter went back to doing. Athough you said "He stopped eating with Gentiles", I don't think that sums it up. See the following passage. The red does not explain alltogether what he went back to doing and the whole verse is to show that we cannot be justified throught works, but through faith in Christ only.

    [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all,"If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']why do you [/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']compel[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] Gentiles to live as Jews?[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.[/FONT]

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    Thank you ! i try to read the bible every day and hardly ever watch tv anymore and am constantly looking for answers i dont have regarding God. Can i ask if you are Jewish ? just that i have been listening to Micheal Brown and other Jewish people that believe in Jesus and they make a lot of sense to me as a non Jewish person but explain the
    Old and New Testiment very well for me. and also with regard to the Law ! Sabbath included
    Nobunaga,

    Hi there.

    I have a tape set called "The Law and Holiness" Volume 1, that you might be interested in which will bless you tremendously. If you are interested just pm me!

    Blessings,
    Connie

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    Quote Originally Posted by shnfx View Post
    I have come across another post and wanted to share. I think it is actually unclear of all that Peter went back to doing. Athough you said "He stopped eating with Gentiles", I don't think that sums it up. See the following passage. The red does not explain alltogether what he went back to doing and the whole verse is to show that we cannot be justified throught works, but through faith in Christ only.
    I would have quoted the rest but it was really hard to read. You were quoting the next few verses. Remember, it all must be read in context of the letter that was being written. We have the chapters and verse divisions now and people tend to chop it up into separate sections missing the whole of it. I've included the portion you were attempting to post, plus the next verse.

    Galatians 2:14-17
    14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
    17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners,
    is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

    You see, I believe we're talking a bit in apples and oranges. I absolutely agree that we are NOT justified by living in the manner of the Jew. I do not live in the manner of a Jew. IMO, the Jews attempt to live beyond the Law of God. This is why they have made new laws, fence laws that say they can not eat milk and meat together; though that is no where in scripture. They have law that says they can not sit and eat with Gentiles, though that is no where in scripture. They have law that tells them how they must ritually wash their hands before meals; Yeshua rebuked them for paying more attention to the traditions than they did to the ACTUAL word of God. Peter had gone back to doing what those Pharisees were doing; caring more about these Jewish traditions (the manner of the Jews) than anything else. Then Paul says that even natural Jew knowing that they are not JUSTIFIED by works of the law, have come to Christ for their justification. AMEN! It is through Messiah that we are justified. Now, let's look at verse 17. Paul is saying that though they are justified by Christ, they still are careful not to be found sinners themselves because Yeshua is not the minister of sin. So, you see, Paul was still conscious of not wanting to sin. What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law of God. Do you see the apples and oranges? Paul is NOT concerned about living in the manner of the Jews (the law) but he IS concerned about not transgressing God's word (the Law). So much becomes more clear when you can separate the oral law from the Law of God and recognize the difference between the two in Paul's writings.

    God Bless!
    II Timothy 2:15
    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Read My Testimony Visit Our Website

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    You see, I believe we're talking a bit in apples and oranges. I absolutely agree that we are NOT justified by living in the manner of the Jew. I do not live in the manner of a Jew. IMO, the Jews attempt to live beyond the Law of God. This is why they have made new laws, fence laws that say they can not eat milk and meat together; though that is no where in scripture. They have law that says they can not sit and eat with Gentiles, though that is no where in scripture. They have law that tells them how they must ritually wash their hands before meals; Yeshua rebuked them for paying more attention to the traditions than they did to the ACTUAL word of God. Peter had gone back to doing what those Pharisees were doing; caring more about these Jewish traditions (the manner of the Jews) than anything else. Then Paul says that even natural Jew knowing that they are not JUSTIFIED by works of the law, have come to Christ for their justification. AMEN! It is through Messiah that we are justified. Now, let's look at verse 17. Paul is saying that though they are justified by Christ, they still are careful not to be found sinners themselves because Yeshua is not the minister of sin. So, you see, Paul was still conscious of not wanting to sin. What is sin? Sin is transgression of the Law of God. Do you see the apples and oranges? Paul is NOT concerned about living in the manner of the Jews (the law) but he IS concerned about not transgressing God's word (the Law). So much becomes more clear when you can separate the oral law from the Law of God and recognize the difference between the two in Paul's writings.
    God Bless!
    Thanks for discussing with me.
    If we both know that we are not justified by the oral law or the Law of Ten Commands then we both know that through Christ alone we are justified. We also both know that not one is righteous according the the works of the Law. All fall short of God's holy standard of his Commandments. If we all fall short of God's commands, then we know for fact we cannot keep His Law. Therefore, we who are in Christ are not judged by the Law, but through Christ. The Law was not made for the purpose for man to follow, but only to show us how Holy and perfect God's standard is and show us how unholy and unclean we are, which is why it points us to the savior. If the Law was created alone for the purpose of men to follow, we would obviously all be guilty and end up in hell because all have broken the Commandments and have turned our back on God. Keeping the Law from now on cannot make up for what we have already done. I am not saying that we should sin. God forbid! I am saying we need to be led to Christ through the Law and through Christ we are given a new heart with new desires to live for Christ and that leads us to repentance and a desire not to sin. We should not bound ourselves up by trying to live by the Law because it is not possible. Again, it only shows us our true colors. Trying to keep the Law can in a sense separate us from Christ because in a sense we are trying to rely on our own goodness (maybe that is not the way you feel, but this actually happened to me. I lost focus on Christ b/c I focused so much on trying to keep the Law). If we focus on Christ instead of keeping the Law, Christ lives through us and we therefore have new desires to not sin because Christ lives in us.

    Here is an interesting scenario regarding attempting to keep the Law and relying on keeping the Law to help them enter heaven.

    We know that Salvation is a gift from God and we cannot earn our way in to heaven.
    If we focus so much on trying to keep the Ten Commandments in a sense we are trying to earn a spot in to heaven by our works.
    "Imagine if you wanted to give me a brand new (very expensive) car, but I said, "I can't take it! I feel embarrassed receiving such a gift . . . here's 10 cents for it." I'm sure you would be very insulted by such a pathetic offer of payment. Besides, if I pay for it, it is no longer a gift, it's a purchase . . . it's mine by right
    When we talk of entering Heaven by being good, by trying to keep the Ten Commandments etc., we are tossing God 10 cents of "self-righteousness," which is a terrible insult to Him, in the light of His sacrifice. The only thing we can do is humble ourselves, repent of our sins, and receive the gift by trusting Jesus Christ alone. Almighty God demonstrated how much He loves you when Jesus suffered for you on the cross. If you want to trust in your own goodness, then you are saying His agonizing death on the cross was in vain. The Bible says, "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." You cannot earn a gift." - Ray Comfort

    So again, It is my attempt to help others understand that our focus should be on Christ and not the Law, but through Christ we are led away from sin and are no longer in bondage to the Law. I just don't want people's focus to be on the Law instead of on Christ. I am not saying that is how you feel specifically, but just want to help others to understand the function of the Law to the best of my ability so they keep their focus on Christ, who is the only One who can save us.

    Have a good day Study!
    Shane

  10. #25
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    Yes, Shane, it is nice to discuss this issue rationally without making judgments. So many times it deteriorates into lots of pointing fingers. There is one point that I believe we seem to be in disagreement regarding and that is sin. The basic definition of sin is this:
    Quote Originally Posted by WebBible Encyclopedia
    (from this link http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/sin.html ) The word used to denote the willful breaking of God's law. It is also the name of a biblical city (see bottom of this page).

    Sin is "any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God" (1 John 3:4; Rom. 4:15), in the inward state and habit of the soul, as well as in the outward conduct of the life, whether by omission or commission (Rom. 6:12-17; 7:5-24).
    Sin, by definition, IS the transgression of God's Law. I don't see why there is a need to divorce onesself from this. No where in ALL of the Apostolic writings does it even imply that it is somehow bad to follow the commands (commandments) of God. It IS bad to think you will be JUSTIFIED if you do. Therefore, a desire to not sin is by definition a desire to abide by the Law of God. Which, BTW, is NOT the same as the desire to keep the oral law of the Jews.
    II Timothy 2:15
    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Read My Testimony Visit Our Website

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    Thanks to you all for your advice. Greatly appreciated

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    Thanks to you all for your advice. Greatly appreciated
    Thank you. Through questions I often learn more and more about God's word when I seek to find answers from the word of God to help others. I tend to think that helping others often helps me more then the person I am trying to help.

    I posted a link below regarding specifically keeping the Sabbath. This is my view on the sabbath. Again, don't believe me, but pray and check anything that is said against the word of God. May God be with you in your journey to seek out the will of God. Continue to seek and pray and God will answer.
    http://www.carm.org/diff/Exod20_8.htm

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnfx View Post

    Great link, thanks for sharing it.
    Blessings,

    Road Warrior


    Proverbs 4:23
    23 Guard your heart above all else,
    for it determines the course of your life.

  14. #29
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    I read the link too and isn't it interesting that different people can look at the exact same scriptures and see completely different things. I see that Yeshua said the Sabbath was made FOR man and see it as a gift, while others seem to see it as a curse. I see this as the reinstitution that the link's writer seems to miss when they state that only nine of the ten commandments were reinstituted. Ten being the biblical number of completeness, I believe Yeshua completely affirmed the word (commandments) of the Father; all of them.

    God Bless!
    II Timothy 2:15
    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Read My Testimony Visit Our Website

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    I read the link too and isn't it interesting that different people can look at the exact same scriptures and see completely different things. I see that Yeshua said the Sabbath was made FOR man and see it as a gift, while others seem to see it as a curse. I see this as the reinstitution that the link's writer seems to miss when they state that only nine of the ten commandments were reinstituted. Ten being the biblical number of completeness, I believe Yeshua completely affirmed the word (commandments) of the Father; all of them.

    God Bless!
    Hi Study,

    I thought 7 was the number of completion and 10 is the number of testing. Perhaps we use different reference books. Mine says that the 10 commandments were the special test that God gave to Israel. Other examples of 10 being the number of testing, is the church of Smyrna who would be tested for 10 days, and the parable of 10 pounds illustrates that the Lord will test our service when He returns.

    I'm wondering if you feel that we are all in sin because we are not "keeping" the Sabbath? If so, what are the implications for the millions of Christians who did not keep the Sabbath for all these centuries? And for all those throughout the world today, who do not keep the Sabbath as the religious Jews do?

    I don't think I gave the impression that I thought the Sabbath was a curse, did I? If so, I apologize, I didn't mean to do so. I think everything that God gave to the Jews was a blessing. Even the Jews themselves are a blessing to us and to the world.

    I found the link to be a good one in showing the scriptures side by side that way, and felt that it sheds more light on one of those perennially controversial subjects.
    Blessings,

    Road Warrior


    Proverbs 4:23
    23 Guard your heart above all else,
    for it determines the course of your life.

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