Soldiers kill on orders - Can a Christian?

[Brother Mark]

I certainly would never question the bible, or if it states that God ordered a war/ conflict. You obviously make a direct connection between God ordering an Israelite king to wage war and a 'christian' country going to war today. I make no such connection.

If the argument is going to be made that a Christian cannot fight in war, then the argument must also be made that Joshua could not fight in war. Abraham went and delivered his family from the kings that took Sodom. Abraham was a father of the faith. But was he a prophet? He knew and understood about protecting others from evil.

As creator and sustainer of all life God has the total right to do as he pleases. And yes this will always be for a loving reason. So please put 'flesh' on your arguement - Why does the bible say God ordered Saul to make war in this case?

That is an excellent question and one for another thread. But has God ceased the idea that evil should be killed?

Can a believer be a policeman?

I asked you a question earlier and I will ask it again. If the goodman of the house prepares for and prevents the theif from stealing, then should we not do the same?

An even more important question I asked you earlier. If God granted you a daughter, would you stand by and turn the other cheek while she was raped and murdered? What kind of man would do such a thing? God says that the goodman would not allow this to happen. So if a goodman will not allow it, what kind of man would allow it?

We can focus on the life and teachings of Christ. They are the same as the teachings of the OT. Not only judges, kings and prophets went to war, but men of faith! Do we hear God as they did? Yea! Because we have his spirit in us today and he speaks to us the same truth.

[th1bill]

I don't know what value is given to my commentary by Matthew Henry.

Matthew Henry is a very respected commentator on scripture. That being said, his comments are not scripture and do not superceed the Word of God.

[ServantofTruth]

It seems that no one is disagreeing with the understanding of the 'go buy a sword' scripture. That this was said to show danger in the near future and ironic. That it had Old Testament connections with 'the sword of the spirit.' Yes Matthew Henry is one man, but it seems he has respect for teaching / understanding processes.
So now i will go and look up what he says about John the Baptist baptising soldiers.
Brother Mark i don't seek to avoid your questions. For me it is interesting what the law of my own country says. On finding someone trying to rape either a family member of mine or anyone else, i may stop them and if possible try to restrain them/ make a citizens arrest until the police arrive, or let them escape. This seems to fit very nicely with the non violence - Jesus position.
Now let me put a similar story to you. A man with a gun comes to your house, with the state aim to kill you, what would you do? If you had a gun would you shoot them first? Or would you go out and talk to them, show them the love of Jesus Christ and trust in the power of the Holy Spirit? If you heard this had happened to another christian and they had shot the person dead would you agree with their actions?

[Duane Morse]

It seems that no one is disagreeing with the understanding of the 'go buy a sword' scripture.

Actually, I do.

The 'sword' spoken of is, in my estimation, defined for us as 'the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God'.


Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

[Slug1]

Now let me put a similar story to you. A man with a gun comes to your house, with the state aim to kill you, what would you do? If you had a gun would you shoot them first? Or would you go out and talk to them, show them the love of Jesus Christ and trust in the power of the Holy Spirit? If you heard this had happened to another christian and they had shot the person dead would you agree with their actions?

In this question there are so many variables to such a situation different then that on the front lines in a warzone. Since such a situation is similar in the sense that life may be taken I'll answer it the best I can from my own perspective.

We have a man coming into your home with the intent to kill you as you stated and then asked what would I do. Well, it boils down to 2 things, 1. Defend yourself or 2. Get killed.

So we have to decide how to defend ourselves against an unknown man that is armed with a gun. It's hard cause what type of neighborhood do I live in, has anyone in the local area been robbed and killed lately, has he already fired and missed me... so many variables left out.

Trust in the power of the Holy Spirit you say.... Last month a woman put 100% of her faith and trust in the Holy Spirit and shot down a man in a church in Colorado. According to her interview with the news she had been praying to God if she should continue her career in law enforcement and remain a cop. I'd say God gave her a clear answer, YES and to show her how important her role is as a servant of Christ she was put in a situation where she had a choice to be obedient. She was blessed at that moment on her road as a cop and said that she was calm as she took the killer down. It's the same for soldiers that are being obedient to God as well.

Agree with their actions...I guess once all details of a situation is made public then a proper decision of agreement or disagreement can be made. Yes, I would agree with a Christian killing an intruder with the intension's (state aim) to kill you. Just as that person had intention's of killing as many Christians as he possible could and the Holy Spirit placed in the heart of the pastor of that church to require security at his church due to the killings at the other church several hours before. Then the Holy Spirit guided that female cop to use lethal force in such a calm state of mind she later said that she felt the presence and guidance upon her.

When the Holy Spirit moves you, be obedient cause if this person had the opinion that you have then many people in that church would have died due to disobedience of God's will.

[ServantofTruth]

Slug1 - i had just that topic/ incident of the church shooting in mind as i typed that last post and i couldn't disagree with you more. Returning to my hypothetical situation, it has actually happened i believe. I read a book by Billy Graham's son. Again i don't know if this is a man/ preacher you all respect or not? He tells of a man coming to their house with a gun and shouting that he was going to kill his father. Now this family are not strangers to guns. The son learned how to shoot with the local minister. So did Billy Graham grab his gun and go out and shoot this man? According to my opponents in this debate, he would biblically have been within his rights and God/ Jesus would have seen nothing wrong in that action, not just defending himself but his whole family in the house.
But this 'well respected' by many christians teacher and preacher, went out and spoke to the man. He trusted God and his Spirit. They ended up praying together and the inccident ended peacefully. He loved his neighbour, he turned the other cheek, he met violence with love and God's power was shown. Yes i bet he was scared and i guess if he had been shot dead many of you would call him a fool. You may tell me that this man backs people in the army, i don't know, but this incident shows love can face threats and violence and win.

[ServantofTruth]

Right Luke 3:14. May i first point out how few scriptures there are in the gospels that can be used to support violent response - and if we look at each they soon disappear. We have looked at the 'buy a sword' and i think we have quickly and easily shown the true meaning supports the power of the Spirit of God - the Sword of the Spirit, noone seems to be disagreeing. This is perhaps because when these scriptures are studied by experts in people's own churches/ denominations they say similar things?
So we turn to the second, of i believe only 3 scriptures in the GOSPELS that are used for anything except total love and none response to threats and violence. The context of this 'single' verse of scripture is interesting. 3 groups of people in rapid succession ask what they much do. First the crowds - give you excess to the needy, the tax collectors - only make people pay the correct amount, THEN the soldiers - don't force people to pay money to make you leave them alone. Be satisfied with your pay.
Or another 'better?' translation? 'No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay!' I'm sorry my wife says i must go and have lunch i will finish asap. Thank you for understanding.

[ServantofTruth]

So with my commentary's help. Were these Jewish or Roman soldiers? We can't know. Lets think about what would have happened if John had said,'Give up being soldiers, lay down your weapons immediatly and don't take orders any longer.' I think if we are honest within hours, if not minutes John would have been arrested and executed.
So what does John do? Well his reply could just as well have been 'Obey my teachings and the scriptures.' Or love your neighbour. He is saying that if you meet violence with love, anger with calm, act in a Godly way towards everyone, you can do any job. Yes even a soldiers job. But he is NOT saying its ok to kill, go to war.
If you like similar to Jesus letting 2 of his disciples carry swords, but the very first time one was used by Peter - he said stop, put it away. My father could send protection immediatly. Perhaps as well as angels, he means the Spirit? The 'sword of the spirit?'
I ask all posters to consult study material that they respect from their own churches/ denominations. To ask their ministers/ teachers if this scripture can be used to support war or violent response of any kind. I am offering to listern to the people that you are under the authority of/ have submitted to for understanding. Do they say that this scripture supports, war or joining the army? Not do they think people should join the army - whether this scripture in itself or its context in Luke's gospel supports meeting violence with violence.
There is a reason for me taking this line. I believe your own teachers and ministers will not back your position ON THIS VERSE. I can trust you brothers and sisters to tell the truth and not with hold what you learn from your own material?
This is the 2nd of i believe only 3 verses supporting any position but mine of total peace and love. We can return to the first if people wish to look further. Concentrate on this one. Or move on to any people wish to.
I'm actually finding it much easier to prove my point than i expected. Please post any scripture you wish to support your position and your thoughts on it. Also please post how your church/ denomination explains it in study material. I will be very very surprised if we find a denomination that uses any scripture to support war!

[Slug1]

Slug1 - i had just that topic/ incident of the church shooting in mind as i typed that last post and i couldn't disagree with you more. Returning to my hypothetical situation, it has actually happened i believe. I read a book by Billy Graham's son. Again i don't know if this is a man/ preacher you all respect or not? He tells of a man coming to their house with a gun and shouting that he was going to kill his father. Now this family are not strangers to guns. The son learned how to shoot with the local minister. So did Billy Graham grab his gun and go out and shoot this man? According to my opponents in this debate, he would biblically have been within his rights and God/ Jesus would have seen nothing wrong in that action, not just defending himself but his whole family in the house.
But this 'well respected' by many christians teacher and preacher, went out and spoke to the man. He trusted God and his Spirit. They ended up praying together and the inccident ended peacefully. He loved his neighbour, he turned the other cheek, he met violence with love and God's power was shown. Yes i bet he was scared and i guess if he had been shot dead many of you would call him a fool. You may tell me that this man backs people in the army, i don't know, but this incident shows love can face threats and violence and win.

I agree with you 100% but not all situations are the same. This is one example you brought up as the situation with that female cop I brought up. God's will was done in each situation. Who are we to doubt either of the situations where the result was God's will or not... based on our experienses? In my experiences as a soldier I have been guided to many victories over the enemy. I have been protected from enemy fire and explosions (not one scratch in my case). I thanked and praised God after each battle and victory and confidently ran face first into any battle that followed. I have done exactly what John the Baptist told soldiers of his day to do, not to take advantage of people or abuse them with my position and be happy with my pay.

I'll say this again also... Jesus never recinded that message nor told any soldier He encountered to stop being a soldier. If it is sinful to be a soldier then why would Jesus allow a faithful soldier to continue in sin? We have the situation with the adultress that was about to be stoned and Jesus defended her and told the crowd that if anyone is without sin to cast the first stone. None were thrown and Jesus told her to go and sin no more.

Why did He NEVER do the same with all the soldiers He talked with or blessed?

We each are placed on a specific path and even though my path is far different then your path we both try to be obedient as we do God's will. Disagree with my path all you want, I can't get off of it and I don't want to get off it cause I feel that my blessings will stop if I become disobedient to God's will in my life and and the convictions that the Holy Spirit places in my heart.

Ya know, there's no better soldier then one who is also a Christian because such a soldier fights for more then the patriotism of being a soldier. They fight because they are obediant to God's will and while remaining in God's will and on such a path such a soldier "KNOWS" because of the blessings and convictions from the Holy Spirit.

It's hard to explain I guess how the Holy Spirit works in the life of a soldier who has faith in God especially when led to fight

[Fenris]

He is saying that if you meet violence with love, anger with calm, act in a Godly way towards everyone, you can do any job. Yes even a soldiers job.

This is not a realistic perspective. There exist bad people who are going to do bad things no matter what you say or do to them. Acting in such a manner may even encourage them.

[Brother Mark]

Now let me put a similar story to you. A man with a gun comes to your house, with the state aim to kill you, what would you do? If you had a gun would you shoot them first? Or would you go out and talk to them, show them the love of Jesus Christ and trust in the power of the Holy Spirit? If you heard this had happened to another christian and they had shot the person dead would you agree with their actions?

If I were alone, I would probably leave. But I would never ever allow them to harm my family. Jesus said the goodman of the house would prevent it. I am a goodman. Therefor, I would stop it.

How would you detain the man that was raping your daughter? Would you just say "stop or I will stay stop again"? How do you propose to hold this man up or to prevent him from murdering your family without using violence? Do not think God is not a God of violence. Jesus is coming with a sword. He violently threw people out of the temple. I also ask you about one that was going to murder your daughter. Would you be a goodman of the house and prevent it? Or would you allow it to happen? Does not scripture say that the goodman of the house would stop it from happening?

[Slug1]

If I were alone, I would probably leave. But I would never ever allow them to harm my family. Jesus said the goodman of the house would prevent it. I am a goodman. Therefor, I would stop it.

How would you detain the man that was raping your daughter? Would you just say "stop or I will stay stop again"? How do you propose to hold this man up or to prevent him from murdering your family without using violence? Do not think God is not a God of violence. Jesus is coming with a sword. He violently threw people out of the temple.

Yeah, many Christians seem to evade this fact that when Jesus returns He's gonna slaughter millions just by speaking.

[Fenris]

Yeah, many Christians seem to evade this fact that when Jesus returns He's gonna slaughter millions just by speaking.

Great. Now I'm frightened.

[markedward]

I will be very very surprised if we find a denomination that uses any scripture to support war!

No one is going to "support" war. You're not going to find a non-Christian who "supports" abortion. Now, abortion is wrong because it's simply killing.

Listen, we use the Old Testament to determine right and wrong. We open it up, "Uh, don't shave the sides of your beard! Look, don't get tattoos! Hey, sleeping with a goat is wrong!" I guarantee you continually have at least one Law affect your daily decision making on a regular basis. But when you see that "don't shave the sides of your beard" Law you don't exaggerate it to the extreme that it means you can't shave anything, or you can't get a haircut, do you? If homosexuality comes up in a conversation, you pull out the Bible to the Law and bam, there it is, homosexuality is wrong. If you're going to do that, be consistent. If you're going to use the Law to govern what you think is right and wrong, then read the parts about war, and how to act honorably in war. Wait, how could you act honorably in war if it were completely wrong to begin with? It's because it's not completely wrong. It's wrong if the military power is abused (once again, I refer to John the Baptist telling soldiers not to abuse their power... He didn't tell them not to use it, he only told them not to abuse it). Now, you might say, "But I don't use the Law, I use what Jesus said." Jesus used the Law and quoted from it on a regular basis. Jesus said not to do anything "sexually immoral." Okay... how do you know what is "sexually immoral" unless you open up the Law and take a look at the chapter that speaks about it? Jesus' sacrifice keeps us from being condemned by the Law, not that He took it away. For those who don't have the Law have the law of their hearts, but anyone who has the Law should study it and know what is right and wrong, and war happens quite often in the Bible to do what is right.

Again, war happens in the Bible and sometimes it is even commanded by God to happen. Soldiers are encountered numerous times in the New Testament, by Jesus and His apostles, but not once do they speak against those soldiers for being in the military.

[ServantofTruth]

Please allow me to answer each of you individually.
Firstly Fenris - you say it is unrealistic to meet violence with love and that it might even encourage those people to behave more violently. You know it just might! But that didn't stop our Lord Jesus. The anger and threats and actions grew until he was crucified. Paul was stoned - twice/ 3 times? - they were trying to kill him! Beaten. You know what Jesus even predicted it would happen to HIM and yes THOSE WHO FOLLOWED HIM. We claim to follow? Then we must accept we will suffer like Jesus, like the apostles (only 1 died a natural death John in old age?), like those burned at the stake, stoned, crucified and you know they are still dying today in some countries. Beheaded, firing squad etc etc.
But i guess most of us live quite quiet lives. We're not prepared to follow this teaching - that we will suffer for our faith. We know better and if evil comes our way, we'll meet it with as much force as we can muster.
What would each of those apostles who went to their death living the 'love and peace' think of us. We won't even take a hurtful word without having to defend our Ego. What would a christian in China or the Old Russia, or some African countries think of us, living it cosy and discussing love and then falling short. They are prepared to die for their bible faith in Jesus Christ.