Soldiers kill on orders - Can a Christian?

[Ecumaniac]

Who does Jesus bless who isn't a sinner?

The centurion who came to Him asking...

You seem to misunderstand my question. I wasn't asking who you were discussing — I was asking if Jesus ever, in his entire ministry, blessed and healed someone who wasn't a sinner.

In this case the servant is what we'd call in today's army an "Aide". It's a very respectable position especially for officers.

You say this in a very certain tone, but I am aware that the precise meaning of the word pais in this passage is hotly debated, ranging from "beloved servant" to "adopted son," and even "homosexual partner". Indeed, Strong's records a wide range of possible definitions, and there are hardly enough contextual cues to make a sure determination. Most translations describe the boy as a servant, which seems like a safe conclusion.

Regardless, whether the boy is a servant, aide or male lover to the centurion, what stands is that Jesus (and, later, his apostles) healed many sinners, without enumerating every sin they were guilty of before or after. For this reason, the argument that "he didn't say anything given the opportunity" (i.e. argument from silence) seems a little weak to me.

[Slug1]

You seem to misunderstand my question. I wasn't asking who you were discussing — I was asking if Jesus ever, in his entire ministry, blessed and healed someone who wasn't a sinner.

As I ended that sentence I said that we're all sinners but to be proactive at it by "being" a soldier as the OP states... Hahaha, there are so many threads dealing with this topic right now they're starting to blur

You say this in a very certain tone, but I am aware that the precise meaning of the word pais in this passage is hotly debated, ranging from "beloved servant" to "adopted son," and even "homosexual partner". Indeed, Strong's records a wide range of possible definitions, and there are hardly enough contextual cues to make a sure determination. Most translations describe the boy as a servant, which seems like a safe conclusion.

Regardless, whether the boy is a servant, aide or male lover to the centurion, what stands is that Jesus (and, later, his apostles) healed many sinners, without enumerating every sin they were guilty of before or after. For this reason, the argument that "he didn't say anything given the opportunity" (i.e. argument from silence) seems a little weak to me.

Weak to you but this is what I was led to by the Holy Spirit many years ago when I was in doubt about my job and the fact I was now a Christian serving in the military. Yeah, I had the same thoughts as what the OP has for this thread but was led out of that doubt through scripture and made clear to me that I was a soldier cause God wanted me to be a warrior.

I'm not educated enough to go into the original languages and thus original meanings of scripture. All I have is my experiences in my relationship with God while I served for over 21 years as a soldier and what the Holy Spirit reveals to me as I read my Bible... in English

Jesus took the opportunity to tell the adulteress (proactive sin) to Go and sin no more. So do we have God picking and choosing who to correct and who not to correct... thats not very consistent.

Do we have a God that will bless a faithful servant serving as a soldier while alive and then condemn them after death cause they were a soldier? Not very consistent and quite two faced.

So, in being faithful we're also obedient to God's will in our life and as the blessings come in whatever form, one would say that a person receiving God's blessings are within God's will for them.

I know that when I wasn't in God's will and off doing my own thing I was eventually miserable cause EVERYTHING was going wrong and God seemed to distant, not answering prayers etc. Then once I learned whatever lessons I was to learn (there have been many over the years cause I can be stubborn and want to do things MY way and not God's way) and came back to God and did it His way the problems went away and the blessings returned.

I was within God's will while I served and when it was time to retire it was a blessing cause again God answered all my prayers for a smooth retirement. To the point I got stationed at a base near where I was raised to retire out of, led to a house I bought and now led to a ministry that will start at this base I live near.

[ServantofTruth]

I think this is my post of the 4 scripures always used to deny that Jesus was a pacifist while on earth.

I must say that i am a little disappointed that noone has replied yet to my comments above. I hope the reason is that we are all busy people with families, jobs etc - not that they feel the arguement is being lost and it is easier to say nothing.
So in the purging of the temple - Jesus knew the hearts and minds of people before he acted. There was no negative response, not from the merchants, the priests or the temple police. You can only move away from peace and love when in confrontation and there was no opposition. They already knew they were doing wrong and accepted his pointing it out. He acted in love, with no violence towards people or animal. He even left their 'goods' there, especially the doves and said 'you take them out as you leave.'
I have begun to look at our last gospel arguement for Jesus approving of being a soldier or not disapproving. It's interesting that the commentry begins by saying that whatever job you do, being a soldier for example, will not be an excuse for any sin at the judgement. Each act will be judged individually, saying i was ordered will not be acceptable.
I feel we can almost sum up the arguements in the GOSPELS for or against being anything but passive/ pacifist as a christian, and then ask can a pacifist be a soldier?
Please don't walk away from this discussion. If you need more time to think, or consult books, commentrys, or ministers/ teachers please say. If you have doubts over long held positions or views please share. Some of you are teachers yourselves. If you want to return to any of the texts and disagree with the stated position we can look again - but please together not in private.
(1) Jesus saying 'buy a sword' has been agreed i believe to refer to immediate extra danger as he knows, has arranged, his arrest and won't be able to protect them any more. Also the sword of the spirit in deuteronomy and Paul's letters.
(2) John the baptist answering the soldiers question - what must we do - his response goes as far as he could in a brief line of quick fire questions, without being arrested immediatly. Basically love everyone you deal with. Obey all my other teachings of love and you can't go wrong!
(3) The purging of the temple by Jesus. He knew their hearts and minds and this is proved by them meekly agreeing that they were wrong, in sin, selling in the temple. He needed no violence towards man or beast. They left at his 'Word.' May i add that it is His word, God's Word of scripture/ our old testament, that is why they know he is right.
(4) The healing of the centurian's servant or is it son - depending on the which gospel and again if it is one incident or 2. The Roman is extraordinary. He as a man of power, shows Jesus respect. He has built a meeting place for the Jews. This is no 'ordinary soldier' and his deeds are listsed for a reason i believe. In other words it 'may' be possible to be a soldier in extra- ordinary circumstances. Perhaps only in this man's or very few cases. Jesus may have known this entire man's life and what he has been asked to do and what he has not been asked to do.
Lastly i ask again, please don't walk away from this topic. If you are firm in your convictions that i am wrong in what the bible teaches please explain to me. But if you are begining to doubt please also post. If you wish as stated to go beyond the gospels to the letters in the new testament lets go there next. I have also read a little more of Romans. Give your enemies food and drink, it will be like pouring hot coals on thier heads (quoted from proverbs/ Romans) . Surely means showing the enemy love will be more powerful than meeting anger/ violence with the same.
Have a good day everyone. Love and blessings to each of you - Paul.

[ServantofTruth]

The obvious difference between the Samaritan woman at the well and Roman soldiers is status. He could tell the Samaritan woman that he is the Christ. How many people did he tell that to, plain blankly? He couldn't say it to the end, to the priests/ jewish leaders or he would have been arrested and crucified 3 years earlier.
Why can't Jesus say - it's wrong to be a soldier and why can't John the Baptist say - lay down your arms - because had they said that publically and the soldiers laid down their arms, immediate arrest trial and crucifiction as traitors to the Empire! Thats death for the soldiers, death for Jesus/ John the Baptist - death to the kingdom message before our christian faith begins!
Slug1 - please reply - what do YOU honestly think would have happened had Jesus and John the Baptist publically told Roman soldiers to lay down their arms?

[Slug1]

Slug1 - please reply - what do YOU honestly think would have happened had Jesus and John the Baptist publically told Roman soldiers to lay down their arms?

I don't know and that is my honest answer.

With that said, it didn't happen so I don't really care what would "have" happened and that is also how I honestly feel about it. To much "what if" in that and if answered WILL lead from the truth cause truth is only found in what DID happen. Neither of them ever told a soldier to put down their arms.

edit: By playing into the 'what if' game we develop a God we want, not God who is I AM!

[Seeker of truth]

I don't know and that is my honest answer.

With that said, it didn't happen so I don't really care what would "have" happened and that is also how I honestly feel about it. To much "what if" in that and if answered WILL lead from the truth cause truth is only found in what DID happen. Neither of them ever told a soldier to put down their arms.

I have been following this thread but I haven't replied yet. I will now as I agree with Slug's answer.

Also, I don't believe we should second guess the Word of God. I believe saying "what if" about the Word is not for us to do.

The Word is His word and that should be enough for us as Christians.

[Amazedgrace21]

The obvious difference between the Samaritan woman at the well and Roman soldiers is status. He could tell the Samaritan woman that he is the Christ. How many people did he tell that to, plain blankly? He couldn't say it to the end, to the priests/ jewish leaders or he would have been arrested and crucified 3 years earlier.
Why can't Jesus say - it's wrong to be a soldier and why can't John the Baptist say - lay down your arms - because had they said that publically and the soldiers laid down their arms, immediate arrest trial and crucifiction as traitors to the Empire! Thats death for the soldiers, death for Jesus/ John the Baptist - death to the kingdom message before our christian faith begins!
Slug1 - please reply - what do YOU honestly think would have happened had Jesus and John the Baptist publically told Roman soldiers to lay down their arms?

Neither Jesus or John walked in spirit's of fear to speak to anything that concerned the welfare of another's soul or was a sin at anytime..

That we confuse what Jesus chose to do in respect to His mission with what we are to do with what He gives anyone else as their's because He accomplished it seems to be the error here.

What seems much more of a clue was that Christ spoke of the occupation of being a soldier with using this one in high esteem and for examples of being a Soldier of faith, that he admired and respected soldiers, He even used the armor of God with illustrations of their armor and examples of preparing for battle..and being a Christian soldier of faith..for his jewish audience..

He did not chose other occupations to do this now did He?

So doesn't it seem to be a contradiction to avoid this as it has been cited heavily throughout all scripture as an honorable profession as well as a event God elected to use for his glory.John himself was told by the Holy Spirit to depict Christ returning as a Warrior in Revelations and very graphic use of the illustrations of warfare, swords and armies if God "hated" and forbid participation in war and an occupation of being a soldier was a sin? These are not what ifs but realities..not once did Jesus ever condem a soldier for the occupation as one or to leave this occupation..

[Slug1]

[Faithful1]

Servant of Truth- I see two major flaws in your orginal post/question.

1- You asked a question about any Christian serving in the armed forces yet your topic clearly covers only a percentage of military members. Quiet honestly I was extremely offended by your opening post. My husband serves in the armed forces- his job does not put him in a position to "kill" yet by association you question his relationship with God. Your opening post questions the faith and relationship with Christ of anyone serving in the armed forces. Clearly you have issues with the military members who actually "kill"- you should be a bit more thoughtful in your wording. Just for the record- I will 100% support any Christian military member regardless of their job.

2- If I am fully understanding your issue with Christian military members who "kill" then you should also be questioning any other job or profession that requires similiar tactics ie: Police Officers, Border Patrol, FBI, CIA, Royal Military Police, Ministry of Defense Police, MI5, Crime Squads, Drug Task Forces, and list goes on.



Just so you know (so you don't think I am posting and never coming back) I will not be responding to this today, as I limit my time on the computer to better serve my relationship with God, my husband, my children, and my home. Hopefully I will have time to check back in the next day or two.

[ServantofTruth]

Neither Jesus or John walked in spirit's of fear to speak to anything that concerned the welfare of another's soul or was a sin at anytime..

That we confuse what Jesus chose to do in respect to His mission with what we are to do with what He gives anyone else as their's because He accomplished it seems to be the error here.

What seems much more of a clue was that Christ spoke of the occupation of being a soldier with using this one in high esteem and for examples of being a Soldier of faith, that he admired and respected soldiers, He even used the armor of God with illustrations of their armor and examples of preparing for battle..and being a Christian soldier of faith..for his jewish audience..

He did not chose other occupations to do this now did He?

So doesn't it seem to be a contradiction to avoid this as it has been cited heavily throughout all scripture as an honorable profession as well as a event God elected to use for his glory.John himself was told by the Holy Spirit to depict Christ returning as a Warrior in Revelations and very graphic use of the illustrations of warfare, swords and armies if God "hated" and forbid participation in war and an occupation of being a soldier was a sin? These are not what ifs but realities..not once did Jesus ever condem a soldier for the occupation as one or to leave this occupation..

Firstly may i appologise again, that i don't have a better posting style and can't break down a post and answer each bit. I am working on this via personal message with a kind member - but my understanding and progress is slow.
I have never said that either John or Jesus had a fear of saying what needed saying. It would indeed be odd if God, creator and sustainer of all things was in fear of anything he made! What i said was Jesus did not always say everything and i gave the example of who he really was. He could have told everyone that he was the expected CHRIST - did he? No. He told the woman at the well, she was a Samaritan. In private he let his disciples/ apostles say he was the Christ - but in public he used Son of Man/ Son of God etc. Why? Because he would have been arrested at once and crucified - BECAUSE when he did admit it that's exactly what happened!!!
Do you believe Jesus was in control the whole of the 3 years of his ministry? Do you believe he chose when to end it? When to go to the capital Jerusalem? When and where to be arrested? He didn't just fullfill prophetsy, he was there when it was writen, he inspired it, he gave that prior knowledge!
It was not through fear that he didn't tell soldiers that killing was wrong - it was not the time. It was not fear that stopped Jesus opening his ministry saying 'I'm not only Christ, I'm actually your God of scriptures in the flesh!' He developed their understanding. A prophet doing miracles, the Christ and lastly God himself. It took the resurrection to open their eyes.
Only a fool would see Jesus as ever affraid. WE CAN AGREE FOR ONCE!

[ServantofTruth]

I don't know and that is my honest answer.

With that said, it didn't happen so I don't really care what would "have" happened and that is also how I honestly feel about it. To much "what if" in that and if answered WILL lead from the truth cause truth is only found in what DID happen. Neither of them ever told a soldier to put down their arms.

edit: By playing into the 'what if' game we develop a God we want, not God who is I AM!

I admit i hadn't looked at it that way and i must now take that into consideration. From my side i am presenting, to me, the reason why he couldn't say certain things at certain times. I see how it is unfair for you to answer a question based on theory. I don't think you can say however that i am definitely wrong, rather that you think i'm wrong and it can't be proved either way.
Not answering the question is fair. Saying you see it differently to me is fair. Saying i am wrong in my interpretation of a scripture compared to you is going too far. I believe you are wrong/ You believe i am wrong - we both base this conclusion on how we see the whole of the bible - not personal opinion. We differ over a few things in this area, but thats why we continue on this topic i hope.

[ServantofTruth]

I have been following this thread but I haven't replied yet. I will now as I agree with Slug's answer.

Also, I don't believe we should second guess the Word of God. I believe saying "what if" about the Word is not for us to do.

The Word is His word and that should be enough for us as Christians.

Thank you Seeker of Truth for both following this thread and feeling able to enter it. I have already replied to Slug1 and with your post's help i saw my question was indeed unfair. It is better to post our thoughts and not get into hypotheticals. We may not agree, but i value you continued participation. SofT

[Slug1]

I admit i hadn't looked at it that way and i must now take that into consideration. From my side i am presenting, to me, the reason why he couldn't say certain things at certain times. I see how it is unfair for you to answer a question based on theory. I don't think you can say however that i am definitely wrong, rather that you think i'm wrong and it can't be proved either way.
Not answering the question is fair. Saying you see it differently to me is fair. Saying i am wrong in my interpretation of a scripture compared to you is going too far. I believe you are wrong/ You believe i am wrong - we both base this conclusion on how we see the whole of the bible - not personal opinion. We differ over a few things in this area, but thats why we continue on this topic i hope.

I believe that such a profession is wrong for you as this is very obvious that God has not placed you on a path to be a warrior. Basically anyone who serves God but serves in "their" way and not God's way is not gonna be successful. I remained obedient and was very successful as a soldier.

Now for you to tell me or any soldier in general that it's wrong to be a soldier cause God has led you down a different path and purpose... IMO that is wrong.

Imagine living in the NT time and watching and listening to Jesus talk to any and all soldiers encountered and then you go up to them after Jesus leaves and tell them that it's wrong to be a soldier. You still don't think that if this was true that it would be recorded in the Bible as Jesus saying it... per your question I can't answer. It never was so it's not wrong to have faith in God and be a soldier and this is based on what I HAVE read not what I speculate based on opinion.

[ServantofTruth]

Servant of Truth- I see two major flaws in your orginal post/question.

1- You asked a question about any Christian serving in the armed forces yet your topic clearly covers only a percentage of military members. Quiet honestly I was extremely offended by your opening post. My husband serves in the armed forces- his job does not put him in a position to "kill" yet by association you question his relationship with God. Your opening post questions the faith and relationship with Christ of anyone serving in the armed forces. Clearly you have issues with the military members who actually "kill"- you should be a bit more thoughtful in your wording. Just for the record- I will 100% support any Christian military member regardless of their job.

2- If I am fully understanding your issue with Christian military members who "kill" then you should also be questioning any other job or profession that requires similiar tactics ie: Police Officers, Border Patrol, FBI, CIA, Royal Military Police, Ministry of Defense Police, MI5, Crime Squads, Drug Task Forces, and list goes on.

Faithful1 - you are very welcome on my topic and your thoughts valued. As this topic has developed and moved in a direction of it's own/ other peoples' will, not mine, i have regretted the topic title and original idea behind it more and more. May i appologise to you and your family, and any other service families, for any offense.
What i really want to discuss now is Jesus' life on earth. Those 33 years - those 3 years of ministry. I say he was a pacifist, an idea originally from someone else i believe. But it gripped me. Yes if i could prove this, i'd like to discuss the original issue - with should we be living as Jesus did on earth. We'd need to discuss, Jesus in heaven from the begining of time and after his death now and to eternity.
But what i want to focus on is other people's focus. I see it again and again and again on every violent verse violent topic. They use the same 4 scriptures and i scratch my head. These scriptures have puzzled me and dare i say many of our faith? I wanted to look at each and see if they support a violent response to a violent aggressor.
I have written above on each. I have had a little disagreement, but actually things went quiet very quickly as we turned to these 4 scriptures. I'm glad Slug1 has come back, i respect him for that. That is what i expected calm sensibly thought out debate using only other scripture to support our views.
I won't name the other posters who have vanished and their solid opinion that i was wrong. It happened after i meantioned what my Matthew Henry commentary said about the 'go sell some clothes and buy a sword' scripture. I have no idea who Matthew Henry was! I asked people on this site to recommend a commentary they respected and bought it 'blind.' But it seems they respect him a whole lot, perhaps have it themselves to reference scripture - and won't disagree with him??
I just want them to return and tell me their thoughts based on scripture. Hey, everyone is disagreeing with me at the moment and i've got more respect for you new posters than ones who hide when the going gets tough. Perhaps we need 'another' new topic? (slug1) Just for Jesus's life of 33 years? Can people let me know if this would be best?
Thank you again for joining us.



Just so you know (so you don't think I am posting and never coming back) I will not be responding to this today, as I limit my time on the computer to better serve my relationship with God, my husband, my children, and my home. Hopefully I will have time to check back in the next day or two.

Its saying my message is too short - i thought it was rather long and i've somehow split the quote too i think, we'll see!

[ServantofTruth]

Messed that up totally. It's put my words in the blue box of previous quote. Please read carefully.