Soldiers kill on orders - Can a Christian?

[ServantofTruth]

Slug1 - i keep saying lets look at scripture. i just want to do those 4, you asked i posted them again. You refuse to post your meaning on them. Your last post is all personal opinion - unless you back it with scripture. I believe you could answer from memory as this must come up in your 'work' all the time and the holy spirit/ God led you to these scriptures in your time of confusion and gave you their meaning. Please focus in on the reason we are here. If you are so certain i am wrong lets look at scripture!

[Brother Mark]

If Samson being filled with the Holy Spirit killed many men, why cannot a Spirit filled believer today kill many men?

Just food for thought. It is better presented in the other thread you started on the swords.

[Amazedgrace21]

Firstly may i appologise again, that i don't have a better posting style and can't break down a post and answer each bit. I am working on this via personal message with a kind member - but my understanding and progress is slow.
I have never said that either John or Jesus had a fear of saying what needed saying. It would indeed be odd if God, creator and sustainer of all things was in fear of anything he made! What i said was Jesus did not always say everything and i gave the example of who he really was. He could have told everyone that he was the expected CHRIST - did he? No. He told the woman at the well, she was a Samaritan. In private he let his disciples/ apostles say he was the Christ - but in public he used Son of Man/ Son of God etc. Why? Because he would have been arrested at once and crucified - BECAUSE when he did admit it that's exactly what happened!!!
Do you believe Jesus was in control the whole of the 3 years of his ministry? Do you believe he chose when to end it? When to go to the capital Jerusalem? When and where to be arrested? He didn't just fullfill prophetsy, he was there when it was writen, he inspired it, he gave that prior knowledge!
It was not through fear that he didn't tell soldiers that killing was wrong - it was not the time. It was not fear that stopped Jesus opening his ministry saying 'I'm not only Christ, I'm actually your God of scriptures in the flesh!' He developed their understanding. A prophet doing miracles, the Christ and lastly God himself. It took the resurrection to open their eyes.
Only a fool would see Jesus as ever affraid. WE CAN AGREE FOR ONCE!

Am glad we can agree on this..yet sincerely I find the very things you say simply encouraging the point that what was essential for us to need clarification regarding, Christ never ommited these things..and essentially why his response to the Centurion was provided regarding soldiers..that was his position..there were several references that commended soldiers, there was no condmnation brought upon their occupation ..to suggest they were to simply not put His mission on earth seems rather peculiar

Unlike those he found a need to correct or in a state of sin like the Samaritan woman, He spoke words of corrction, he told them to go and sin no more..He was certainly concerned about anyones condition of unbelief and directed His ministry to revealing His identity in increments, example and miracles..nor did he ever fail to point out the sin or the hypocrisy of ones occupation it displeased God.

That was never imparted to a soldier or about a soldier,however I do believe there is abundant scripture that "peace at any cost" was not a teaching of Christ's at all and a false ideology. That communion in God would reveal this could not be true and why this was reiforced with the image of warfare and being a soldier of faith..which further suggests the occupation of being a soldier was not an obstacle but an ideal that God used to reveal Himself through, to shine a light through a very dark tunnel in this world when it comes to sin.

That God said there would always be wars until His return is a self evident truth that speaks not speak specifically as a command to refraining from participaton in them but a command to be on the right side when we are forced to engage in them IMHO, no sword, literally or figuratively can be raised in righteousness unless it is raised in righteousness..thats all.

[Amazedgrace21]

I think there are some context issues that should be taken into prayerful consideration here..

The dichotomy that some Christian pacifists make between love and all forms of deadly force, including warfare, is unknown in Jesus’ ethic. The looked-for radical departure from the Old Testament’s view of war is not in the Gospels.

There is a reason we need to consider this..IMHO.

Acts tells us of the theological and evangelistic development of the newborn faith. The Epistles and Revelation give us insights into the ethical life of the church. In them Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John (and perhaps others) deal directly with the internal affairs of the church and with Christian morality. They discuss administrative, doctrinal, personal, and most important for our discussion, ethical matters.

As each year brought the brethren farther in time from the cross, they were asking new questions. Of concern to many was how this new way of life was to be lived in a fallen world.

As a group, the earliest Christians never had a problem with military service. Being Jews, they were exempt from service in the Roman army. Not until the mid a.d. 60s did Romans make distinctions between Jews and Christians, at which time Christians would have lost their Jewish exemption. For all practical purposes, however, the situation did not change. Christians, by virtue of being considered traitorous atheists, could not have been Roman soldiers. Nor would they have wanted to, as the Roman army generally imposed a culture of paganism on its soldiers.

So, by a.d. 65 many issues we face today over military service were not yet active concerns of the church. During these early years the church did not need the apostles to write specifically about military service or pacifism. Although a rare soldier such as Cornelius came into the church, the apostles did not feel it necessary to address whether Christians might serve in a military or police force or whether in the performance of their duties they could take human life. The church was more concerned about proclaiming the risen Lord than figuring out all the details of Christian ethics for all time thereafter.

Furthermore treatment of God's position on war was also a matter of historical record in the OT..warfare and armies were brought forward again in full circle once agian by John in Revelation.

If the fruit of the Spirit automatically rules out all forms of warfare, how then do we understand God himself, the Mighty One? Revelation shows us that even in the New Testament, God condones some forms of war (Revelation 19:11–15). It seems that the fruit of the Spirit would have to include this side of God as well. Yet, the fruit of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5 says nothing of this.

To apply Paul’s lists in Galatians 5 to the complex issues of military service, war, capital punishment and defense ignores both the general nature of such lists and the church context that they were specifically addressing. Civil, national and personal defense are not Paul’s concerns in Galatians 5. Internal church affairs are. We should not assume more for these passages than what Paul originally intended.
Some pacifists argue that the very nature of warfare is such that one cannot carry it out without sin. Those who look to the Bible as the ultimate standard should immediately recognize the speciousness of such an argument. God wars in both Testaments.

In the Old Testament God ordered others to war. As has been noted, the blessings for obedience to God’s Mosaic covenant did not include freedom from war, but victory in war. In the New Testament, God continues to be portrayed as a God who wars. Those familiar with the apocalyptic portions of the New Testament know this.

The Bible never portrays all warfare as inherently sinful.

I would agree, however, that sin always accompanies human war. The nature of humans is such that no activity — not even preaching the gospel — is free from sin. We taint all the good we do with sin. The motivations of the best of actions are at some level a mixture of good and bad, a mixture of sin and righteousness. To expect Christian behavior to be otherwise is unrealistic. To refuse to participate in an activity simply because some sin will be present makes no sense.

[Slug1]

Awesome post AG21

[Faithful1]

Faithful1 - you are very welcome on my topic and your thoughts valued. As this topic has developed and moved in a direction of it's own/ other peoples' will, not mine, i have regretted the topic title and original idea behind it more and more. May i appologise to you and your family, and any other service families, for any offense.

Thank you for your apology. I had sincerely hoped that you were not questioning someone elses heart and their realtionship with God. I believe that is a very dangerous game we Christians attempt to play.

What i really want to discuss now is Jesus' life on earth. Those 33 years - those 3 years of ministry. I say he was a pacifist, an idea originally from someone else i believe. But it gripped me. Yes if i could prove this, i'd like to discuss the original issue - with should we be living as Jesus did on earth. We'd need to discuss, Jesus in heaven from the begining of time and after his death now and to eternity.
But what i want to focus on is other people's focus. I see it again and again and again on every violent verse violent topic. They use the same 4 scriptures and i scratch my head. These scriptures have puzzled me and dare i say many of our faith? I wanted to look at each and see if they support a violent response to a violent aggressor.

I'd like to pose another question to you SOT.... Jesus never married because it fell out of line with what He was called to do here on this earth. Because he was single, does that mean everyman should remain single?

I ask this because through the past 9 pages there seems to be a cat and mouse game of "Jesus did _____ and so obviously we are called to do the same." My point being this... While we are to strive to live a flawless life and model our life after the perfect life that Christ lived, I don't believe we are called to follow the same paths of Christs. If God's intention was for each of us to follow the same path as Christ we would not have specific instructions otherwise. Bold text is my emphasis and this scripture is 1 Cor 12.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

I have written above on each. I have had a little disagreement, but actually things went quiet very quickly as we turned to these 4 scriptures. I'm glad Slug1 has come back, i respect him for that. That is what i expected calm sensibly thought out debate using only other scripture to support our views.
I won't name the other posters who have vanished and their solid opinion that i was wrong. It happened after i meantioned what my Matthew Henry commentary said about the 'go sell some clothes and buy a sword' scripture. I have no idea who Matthew Henry was! I asked people on this site to recommend a commentary they respected and bought it 'blind.' But it seems they respect him a whole lot, perhaps have it themselves to reference scripture - and won't disagree with him??
I just want them to return and tell me their thoughts based on scripture. Hey, everyone is disagreeing with me at the moment and i've got more respect for you new posters than ones who hide when the going gets tough. Perhaps we need 'another' new topic? (slug1) Just for Jesus's life of 33 years? Can people let me know if this would be best?
Thank you again for joining us.

I would certainly hope you haven't decided to disregard anyones posts based on whether or not they have stuck it out in this topic. Surely you have to realize that some do not have a desire to rehash the same points over and over and others just want to make a point and move onto other topics. Most of the people who have responded here are actively involved in MANY other posts. There comes a point in time when you can longer give every post your full undivided attention. This doesn't take anything away from what they have said or what kind of person they are.

Just a note.... I probably won't actively reply like some of the other posters. I have a lot going on right now and am limited to how much time I can spend here, however I look forward to your reply.

[Slug1]

Slug1 - i keep saying lets look at scripture. i just want to do those 4, you asked i posted them again. You refuse to post your meaning on them. Your last post is all personal opinion - unless you back it with scripture. I believe you could answer from memory as this must come up in your 'work' all the time and the holy spirit/ God led you to these scriptures in your time of confusion and gave you their meaning. Please focus in on the reason we are here. If you are so certain i am wrong lets look at scripture!

I'll get to these 4:

(1) Jesus saying 'buy a sword' has been agreed i believe to refer to immediate extra danger as he knows, has arranged, his arrest and won't be able to protect them any more. Also the sword of the spirit in deuteronomy and Paul's letters.
(2) John the baptist answering the soldiers question - what must we do - his response goes as far as he could in a brief line of quick fire questions, without being arrested immediatly. Basically love everyone you deal with. Obey all my other teachings of love and you can't go wrong!
(3) The purging of the temple by Jesus. He knew their hearts and minds and this is proved by them meekly agreeing that they were wrong, in sin, selling in the temple. He needed no violence towards man or beast. They left at his 'Word.' May i add that it is His word, God's Word of scripture/ our old testament, that is why they know he is right.
(4) The healing of the centurian's servant or is it son - depending on the which gospel and again if it is one incident or 2. The Roman is extraordinary. He as a man of power, shows Jesus respect.

I did read something at about 4:30 AM my time

In the verse from 1 Thessalonian 4:6

6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. (NKJV)

We have to define "take advantage of" and "defraud" so we have common ground. Take advantage of (in some versions the word 'transgress and defraud' is used, or 'wrong his brother and take advantage' or 'go beyond and defraud')

We can bicker back and forth what this means but the part "I" want to key in on is the second part of the verse... because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.

The verse in context is speaking about sin that is not pleasing to God and in this case, whatever the "take advantage of and defraud or the other translations I included" means will result in God avenging those that ARE taken advantage of, or wronged, or transgressed against.

Now, in the OT God was very open and overt in his punishments and ways to avenge His people (the Hebrews). He blessed armies who wiped out cities of enemy, he sent plagues, curses etc. In the NT we don't see this any longer as now the Gentiles (everyone else) are included as God's people. I've always wondered why and for me it boils down to "FAITH". God can't have people believing in Him through faith if He's openly killing wrong doers, or transgressors, or go beyonders (is that a real word ). This would cause people to believe in Him without "FAITH". It would be like believing in the President IMO.

Anyway, the verse says that God 'will' avenge those wronged. God will avenge those being wronged and how is He to do this today? Lightning? Heart attack?

It would be strange for a criminal to rob a bank and drop dead the moment he left the bank (either by heart attack or struck by lightning on a clear day), or a murderer to kill an innocent person and then die in that moment as well, or the entire Nazi War Machine to all suddenly die the moment they stepped into Russia, or the entire Iraqi Republican Guard to suddenly die after the last tank crossed the border in Kuwait, or those terrorists that hijacked the planes to use as weapons of mass destruction... you get my meaning by now.

So, how is God to do what His Holy Word says that He'll do in this day and age?

Do we have to passively step aside and let the criminals freely rob and kill or allow the armies of dictators to freely take over God's earth slaughtering those they don't like?

Or

Does God wait for these evil men to die of old age for His judgment?

No!

God stops them from wronging others!

In the criminal cases we have Law Enforcement and in the war cases we have soldiers that God uses to bring His wrath down on the wrong doer or those who practice evil...

Romans 13:4

4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an (A)avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Whether a soldier or any law officer believes in God or not, really isn't a factor in the fact that they are fulfilling God's purpose here on earth.

Just like in the OT warriors were faithful to God we have faithful warriors today as well and through scripture there is only support or blessings shown toward them, never once in scripture are they told to lay down their arms or that having faith in God and being a soldier is wrong.

[Duane Morse]

And yet it is written that:

Ro 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.



Which simply means that - every ruler, no matter whom, is set there by God - and for God's purposes.

Who are we, as men, to judge?

So then - who are we, as men, to judge the likes of Hitler or Hussein?

Who are we, as men, to judge any ruler that is set in place by God?

???

A house divided, falls.

Does God set rulers to oppose one another?
And this is a very serious question, by the way.



Everyone that is in a country is subject to its rule and its ways.

So, a soldier in the U.S. is justified - but so is the soldier of any other government (or movement, by the way. Since Cristianity started out - and remains - a movement -- just like Al Qaeda)!
!!!

Is God just playing war games for His own amusement?
With us as the unwitting pawns?
???


If so, I may just side with Satan in opposing Him.

[Slug1]

Not pawns IMO but instruments to God's purpose. A purpose we can't fathom.

Even in the OT we have the Pharaoh who's heart was hardened by God if I recall correctly. Then we have Moses brought into the picture which led to the ultimate demise of the Pharaoh and the group of soldiers following orders.

Today... IMO God is still doing this, causing rulers to be hardened as men are brought in to fulfill whatever God's purpose is. Do we understand it all, nope!

Are all men called to this purpose to bring wrath down... nope!

But some are and some are Godly men just as the warriors that God chose in the OT were godly... not perfect, as David is a good example of falling into sin but Godly and faithful to God still after repenting and continued to be blessed.

[ServantofTruth]

Thank you everyone. I have read all your latests posts. Will anyone even attempt those 4 gospel scriptures! If you are so certain in your conviction - please just post what each means! Then all readers can see your explaination, alongside mine. We may not agree but surely it is the fairest way to proceed. Until that is done - everyone will have to draw their own conclusions, and my personal one is that you can't make them support your position and know they support mine.

[Duane Morse]

Not pawns ...

causing rulers to be hardened ...

Causing! ...

Pawns.

Moving the pieces in a pre-determined way.



So then, does the end justify the means?



It doesn't where men are concerned.
But, does God play by the same rules?

[Slug1]

Call me a Pawn then, no wait... I'm a Knight

[Faithful1]

Thank you everyone. I have read all your latests posts. Will anyone even attempt those 4 gospel scriptures! If you are so certain in your conviction - please just post what each means! Then all readers can see your explaination, alongside mine. We may not agree but surely it is the fairest way to proceed. Until that is done - everyone will have to draw their own conclusions, and my personal one is that you can't make them support your position and know they support mine.

I would be happy to address the 4 scriptures you are referring to if you don't mind posting what they were. After 9 pages of posts and many scriptures used... I'm not sure which ones you are specifically addressing.

Any thoughts on my post?

[ServantofTruth]

I must say that i am a little disappointed that noone has replied yet to my comments above. I hope the reason is that we are all busy people with families, jobs etc - not that they feel the arguement is being lost and it is easier to say nothing.
So in the purging of the temple - Jesus knew the hearts and minds of people before he acted. There was no negative response, not from the merchants, the priests or the temple police. You can only move away from peace and love when in confrontation and there was no opposition. They already knew they were doing wrong and accepted his pointing it out. He acted in love, with no violence towards people or animal. He even left their 'goods' there, especially the doves and said 'you take them out as you leave.'
I have begun to look at our last gospel arguement for Jesus approving of being a soldier or not disapproving. It's interesting that the commentry begins by saying that whatever job you do, being a soldier for example, will not be an excuse for any sin at the judgement. Each act will be judged individually, saying i was ordered will not be acceptable.
I feel we can almost sum up the arguements in the GOSPELS for or against being anything but passive/ pacifist as a christian, and then ask can a pacifist be a soldier?
Please don't walk away from this discussion. If you need more time to think, or consult books, commentrys, or ministers/ teachers please say. If you have doubts over long held positions or views please share. Some of you are teachers yourselves. If you want to return to any of the texts and disagree with the stated position we can look again - but please together not in private.
(1) Jesus saying 'buy a sword' has been agreed i believe to refer to immediate extra danger as he knows, has arranged, his arrest and won't be able to protect them any more. Also the sword of the spirit in deuteronomy and Paul's letters.
(2) John the baptist answering the soldiers question - what must we do - his response goes as far as he could in a brief line of quick fire questions, without being arrested immediatly. Basically love everyone you deal with. Obey all my other teachings of love and you can't go wrong!
(3) The purging of the temple by Jesus. He knew their hearts and minds and this is proved by them meekly agreeing that they were wrong, in sin, selling in the temple. He needed no violence towards man or beast. They left at his 'Word.' May i add that it is His word, God's Word of scripture/ our old testament, that is why they know he is right.
(4) The healing of the centurian's servant or is it son - depending on the which gospel and again if it is one incident or 2. The Roman is extraordinary. He as a man of power, shows Jesus respect. He has built a meeting place for the Jews. This is no 'ordinary soldier' and his deeds are listsed for a reason i believe. In other words it 'may' be possible to be a soldier in extra- ordinary circumstances. Perhaps only in this man's or very few cases. Jesus may have known this entire man's life and what he has been asked to do and what he has not been asked to do.
Lastly i ask again, please don't walk away from this topic. If you are firm in your convictions that i am wrong in what the bible teaches please explain to me. But if you are begining to doubt please also post. If you wish as stated to go beyond the gospels to the letters in the new testament lets go there next. I have also read a little more of Romans. Give your enemies food and drink, it will be like pouring hot coals on thier heads (quoted from proverbs/ Romans) . Surely means showing the enemy love will be more powerful than meeting anger/ violence with the same.
Have a good day everyone. Love and blessings to each of you - Paul.

Here i list them again. Slug1 around again, taking part but still avoiding these 4 gospel texts. But we now have someone else willing to tackle them for you. Perhaps after they post their understanding, you will reply to them?

[Slug1]

Here i list them again. Slug1 around again, taking part but still avoiding these 4 gospel texts. But we now have someone else willing to tackle them for you. Perhaps after they post their understanding, you will reply to them?

Hahaha, I'll get to them tonight after I return from work. Shhhhh, my boss is down the hall