Veteran
markedward - actually your good memory for me entering the homosexuality debate, actually misunderstands my position. It is because that part of the law is RE EXPRESSED in the New Testament that i think it holds true today. That after Jesus was resurrected allowing us to be saved. But i also say it is no different to any other sin, and i commit loads of sin in thought, word and deed every day. Dinner time, i 'll reply to everyone else afterwards.
Veteran
Right Brother Mark - the last of the christmas pudding is just going down, slowly! What would be the correct way to act when coming across the rape of anyone, daughter or not? Because it should make no difference who is being raped. Of course your own relatives would cause more anger and fear and could lead to a more violent response - but that would be wrong. So i would say pull the person off and then act from there. If they became violent, you would have to defend yourself and try to restrain the person. But if they are too big and strong, get everyone away from them and lastly yourself out of the situation. Then call the police and let them arrest the person. To go beyond defence of oneself if given no choice and not try to escape the situation, breaks the law of my country. Every few weeks we hear of someone beating up a burgalor, sometimes shooting them. They are rightly prosecuted.
Veteran
The incident in the temple and Jesus returning with a sword.
I just can't see a connection between this incident and us becoming a soldier and killing under orders. Am i correct that in Jesus' time there was only one temple and one altar? Was that single house of God on earth, within the holy of holies the only meeting place between man and God? This certainly makes the temple different to the thousands of churches on this earth now. Jesus was 'righteously' angry. This was not normal anger like we have over stolen cars, or money or an affair. This was Jesus/ God so angry that respect was not being given to his house/ meeting place with man. Interestingly like his anger with other nations invading the promised land. It just wasn't on. He set the boarders, noone could break them.
How could anyone connect this with a human being joining the army or becoming angry or country bounderies? I'd love to see a connection made. It just keeps being tossed in with no explaination of the meaning or reason. For the people i'm talking to here i expect better, many of you are respected on this site.
These topics on war, violence etc always get the same verses thrown in with no looking at there meaning. Jesus/ God being 'righteously' angry - is a terrible example of Jesus getting angry like the rest of us. If you want to defend the boarders of Israel or the temple with an army, i might see the point, but to use it for being a soldier generally is poor arguement indeed.
Veteran
Slug1 - i'm sorry but i can't do the easy thing and agree that Gods will was done in both our stories. In one Billy Graham met violence with love. The female security at the church met violence with more violence. She believed God spoke to her, i and many christians don't! Many people say God told me to kill that person, generally we don't believe them and lock them up for murder. Just because someone is a christian, we can't just say they must be correct. Yes i'd look to the bible and see the apostles attacked, God's son in danger - Peter uses the best weapon he has at hand, to defend something far more valuable than a churches congregation..the Son of God , and that God Incarnate says stop your violence and put that sword away.
You see if that female cop had been there instead of Peter, her instinct would have been to draw her gun and kill the attackers. I think you also as a soldier would have defended our Lord to the Death. I would have in some much lesser way have fought for him, without any training or skill.....and to that lady, you and every soldier, me and every believer he says NO STOP. MY WAY NOT YOURS. Meet violence with love. He physically healed the ear with love. He heals our hearts and minds and sets us on a new path. One of loving our neighbour.
Deadpan Snarker
To die for your faith is one thing. To die because you refuse to defend yourself from someone who is obviously going to cause you harm is something else entirely. And let's stretch the point even further. You willing to die is one thing; but to expect others to suffer the consequences of your inaction is something else too. Someone comes to kill your spouse or your child- what do you do? Nothing? Call 911 and expect someone else to come and do what you will not? Pray?Originally Posted by ServantofTruth
Pacifism is not a moral stance because by your inaction you side with the aggressor. It doesn't even matter who the victim is.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
As righteous as Christ.
And this is where I think your argument really falls apart. For instance, Christ told us to turn the other cheek. So self defense doesn't seem right. But when I am one in authority, then I act as vengance for the wrath of God. If one came after someone under my authority, I would put Romans 13 to work and do whatever was necessary to prevent damage. If they came after me, I would turn the other cheek. I can't find in scripture where I am supposed to act in self defense.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
Veteran
BrotherMark - by self defence, i am talking about not being a pillow to be stabbed or shot. I would try to deflect the knife or point the gun away from me. I wouldn't attack the other person. All defensive. The right cheek slap was an bad insult in Jesus' day. It was meant to get a response from the other persons ego - to hit back. Yes if ego is hurt, turn the other cheek and allow another insult or slap. Like you i would do what it took to defend my family. If that meant running away so be it - call me coward, hurts only my ego, not my faith in Jesus' words. Or restain the person, pull them off. Put myself in danger to protect my family, let them escape.
Veteran
Fenris - you opinion of the police isn't very high. Mine at times is not much better i admit. I can only talk for the UK. If someone burgals my house and i find out who it is, i'll call the police. Even if i knew i could beat them up, arrest them myself. It is law to call the police and they are trained to arrest people in a safe way. They will bring enough officers with years of specialist training, which includes the care and protection of the person they come to arrest. They have defensive training and restraint techniques. I ask them to arrest the person on my behalf, because the law says i must do that and they are experts in it. This applies to an ex army commando or a 5 year old girl. I don't arrest they do. They have gas, electric knock out guns etc etc.
Yes being a police officer could be a christian profession in the UK. No guns in most cases. That would put us back to the main debate the armed units. But the unarmed ok.
Veteran
Was Jesus not a pacifist? Saul/ Paul not a pacifist? All the apostles after the resurrection not pacifists? Did they side with the agressor? Were their positions not moral? Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life held a position that wasn't moral? Odd indeed!
Deadpan Snarker
On the contrary, I think very highly of the police. But why expect them to do things for you that you will not?
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
Well I am not a Christian so I won't say that Jesus lived a 'perfect' life. He was a highly idealistic individual; and in the ideal world pacifism would indeed be the norm. But we don't live in an ideal world and sometimes we have to meet violence with violence in order to protect ourselves or others.
I believe that violence can even be a holy act, if it is done for the right reasons. I firmly believe that American GIs smashing dictatorships, whether Hitler's Germany or Saddam's Iraq, are performing Godly acts. God will certainly not hold them to account for the soldiers they killed.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
2 Chronicles 7:15-16
Except for the time he got angry in the temple, Yes. Saul was far from a pacifist not until after he gave himself to God then he was. And yes for the rest as far as I can recall
If the millions of Christians today were ALL to be on the path as an evangelist such as Paul and the apostles were... who would be left to be teachers, doctors, lawyers, police, garbage collectors, computer techs, soldiers, UPS truck drivers, etc, etc?
God places all His servants on different paths cause if He didn't then a righteous element and Christian example would be void from all these professions. We spread the Gospel as Christians but only select few are on a path to do ONLY that with no other responsibility.
I'll tell ya something that you may not have thought about. All these Christian soldiers serving in all these combat zones in the world. These areas where Christian missionaries are scarce due to the danger of being in an Islamic country where radical Muslims will slay them just because they're Christians... well they aren't stopping the Gospel being spread from soldiers to the people they encounter in Iraq.
I did, once I made friends with many Iraqis. Usually I opened up conversation by having my terp (who was also a Christian) tell the Iraqi's I was saying "Praise Jesus" in response to a positive event. Many times this opened up conversation about God, Jesus and at times Allah.
There are a couple other soldiers as members on this site that did the same thing while on tour in Iraq or A-stan. Many soldiers are giving themselves to Christ during this war and historically this war has the highest amount of soldiers becoming Christians. Check out a book called 'The Faith of the American Soldier' by Stephen Mansfield and you can read about it. I'm about half-way through it right now. Chaplains aren't doing this all, most of this is done by fellow soldiers.
Anyway, Jesus has thousands of missionaries spreading the Gospel in Iraq and A-stan to both the people of that country and to other soldiers. This could NOT be done on this grand scale with a few pacifist missionaries brave enough to travel these dangerous countries.
Slug1--out
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
.. You know, Slug answered the main thrust of this string very close to the beginning. Soldiers of the American Army, Navy and Marine Corps. have never just slaughtered people on command. My dad joined the US Army on December the 8th, the day after the attack on Pearl. He was 5'3" and they made him a combat medic. He endured the entire Pacific Campaign, doing his duty as a combat medic and never once carried a rifle. If he had a rifle he would not have been able to put the injured soldier onto his back and slither off the field of combat and get him into the field hospital.
.. For myself, I was always there just above the trees, an easy target, and noone ever ordered me to kill anyone. Why did I fire my machine gun? They were trying to kill me! That and the enemy was dead set on keeping me from bringing replacement ammo, food and other logistically required supplies. And many, many times they were trying to kill those men that I had sworn to protect and so I fired, not so much to kill them, I just wanted that mess to cease.
.. The American Soldier is a queer human, indeed. He is the father of beautiful young ladies. He is the husband of some fathers most prized treasure. He is the kid next door, all grown up and he is the professional that shepherds those misfit civilians and does his very best to see that they do not die in vain, because a number of them will lay their lives down on the field of combat, doing their very best to protect all they hold precious and sacred.
.. Yes, they are a queer lot and they are often, far to often, slow to fire their weapons. We all need to praise God for raising up such a strange lot of men. I was one of them for years and I still do not understand what makes them the kind, loving and self sacrificing men that they are. I'll not pretend that there are no bad eggs but I willb guarantee you that there is not another army in the world with as few bad ones as the American Army has. The reason you hear about them is because the staff in our military forces are so quick to weed them out. They get promotions in the other armies of the world and we seek to serve God and therefore expose them.
.. You can and you should be proud of those men, their lives are an open book for the world to look upon.
Veteran
Fenris - i owe you an appology. I just assumed we were all bible believing christians and accepted the position of Jesus Christ in our lives and the world. It will be differcult for me to continue to discuss this with you here because i am trying to prove a biblical position that i think christians should hold - as you don't accept the bible by definition - you will argue against any christian points. I will be happy to discuss any issue with you, but please not on this topic.
Veteran
Slug1/ Bill - this is very important - do you really accept that Jesus was a pacifist EXCEPT for the incident in the temple? So if we could agree on a reason for the incident in the temple not being violent in the human way or having a 'righteous' cause - we could then just say Jesus was a pacifist with no exceptions. And all his followers were as well.
Your next point of christians doing paid work. Did Paul not work through out his life as a tent maker and pay his own way? Yes Jesus sent the apostles out and said stay in the same house and accept food as 'pay' - these were full time 'ministers.' So surely we should all be part time 'ministers' like Paul?
Matthew 6: 25-34 Tells us not to worry about earthly things. God will provide. Look to the Kingdom of heaven. So many christians just won't trust God. My mortgage, my wife, my children - it's not for me you see, that i don't trust God - if i was single i could trust him and live a simple life, but it's their fault.
But why like Paul can't we work only for food, clothing and the smallest cheapest house/ flat possible. Share houses with other christians? Leaving much time to spread the word of God. He could support himself and others he says, and preach! Why can't we? He could also be a PACIFIST a point you have already conceeded in his case.
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