Once saved always saved....

**bbrandy2002** · Feb 25th 2008, 02:40 AM

I'm a believer that once your saved your always saved, however last night I was reading over Revelation. Maybe this is a silly question but its says in the letters to the(Rev.3) Laodicean church that lukewarm christians will be vomited from his mouth. I have heard this saying many times, I'm curious though does this mean that a lukewarm christian will not get into heaven, and in essence have lost thier salvation? I've been a christian for 20 years, I'm still learning but this just struck me. Can someone help me with this question. Thanks.

***Athanasius*** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:04 AM

Oh boy.
Way to ask a question

People will most likely say that those lukewarm Christians, weren't really Christians to begin with, and that's why they would be spit out. With that, I'm not a believer in once saved, always saved.

**Slug1** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Xel'Naga

Oh boy.
Way to ask a question

People will most likely say that those lukewarm Christians, weren't really Christians to begin with, and that's why they would be spit out. With that, I'm not a believer in once saved, always saved.

Yeah, I agree but the Bible says lukewarm "Christians", not lukewarm Christian want-a-be's.

The Scripture is clear and leaves no guess work. These Christian's don't seem to make it.

In the Bible a "Christian" is one who is saved, if the scripture was referring to someone who wasn't a Christian then they would not be referred to as Christian.

***Athanasius*** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Slug1

Yeah, I agree but the Bible says lukewarm "Christians", not lukewarm Christian want-a-be's.

The Scripture is clear and leaves no guess work. These Christian's don't seem to make it.

In the Bible a "Christian" is one who is saved, if the scripture was referring to someone who wasn't a Christian then they would not be referred to as Christian.

Well, that's what I get for trying to guess OSAS answers ;(

**cnw** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:32 AM

Xel, that is what I was eluding to in an earlier thread we were on. I personally believe that carnal means you have the head knowledge of Christianity but not the heart knowledge. Have you ever read Hebrews? It is a really good book but very heavy. I believe once you are saved you are always saved, but I believe that so very few people are saved in the first place.

**Slug1** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by cnw

I believe once you are saved you are always saved, but I believe that so very few people are saved in the first place.

God knows who is saved and who is not saved and I would not expect the Word of God to call one who is not saved, a Christian.

So to be referred to as a Christian must mean, one who is saved.

The scripture in the OP is referring to Christians who seem to be rejected, IOW's salvation wasn't secure.

***Athanasius*** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by cnw

Xel, that is what I was eluding to in an earlier thread we were on. I personally believe that carnal means you have the head knowledge of Christianity but not the heart knowledge. Have you ever read Hebrews? It is a really good book but very heavy. I believe once you are saved you are always saved, but I believe that so very few people are saved in the first place.

I just finished reading Hebrews (again

).
But, I don't know what thread you're referring too, sorry.

As for OSAS doctrine. It's very easy to say that those who go against the faith were never saved to begin with. Thus, once saved always saved is true, because true™ believers won't fall away, reject Christ, etc.

The problem is. . . That we aren't able to make those value judgments; only God knows the state of a persons heart. I think it very well may be that at one point a person was truly™ saved, and at another, turned away to deny Christ before men. The problem with such a position (that those who lose their salvation weren't saved to begin with, and never really 'had salvation') is that the scripture in question explicitly calls these people Christian. I believe it relates quite well to certain fig trees. . . .

***Clifton*** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by bbrandy2002

I'm a believer that once your saved your always saved, however last night I was reading over Revelation. Maybe this is a silly question but its says in the letters to the(Rev.3) Laodicean church that lukewarm christians will be vomited from his mouth. I have heard this saying many times, I'm curious though does this mean that a lukewarm christian will not get into heaven, and in essence have lost thier salvation? I've been a christian for 20 years, I'm still learning but this just struck me. Can someone help me with this question. Thanks.

Sounds like it is best to stay hot and maintain that course. These assemblies of Laodicea are referenced in Col 2:1,2 4:13-17.

Here's something from John Gill's Expositor (18th Century) on Revelation 3:15:

Ver. 15. I know thy works, &c.] Which were far from being perfect, and not so good as those of the former church:

that thou art neither cold nor hot; she was not "cold," or without spiritual life, at least in many of her members, as all men by nature are, and carnal professors be; she was alive, but not lively: nor was she wholly without spiritual affections and love; to God, and Christ, to his people, ways, truths, and ordinances; she had love, but the fervency of it was abated: nor was she without spiritual breathings and desires altogether, as dead men are; or without the light and knowledge of the Gospel, and a profession of it, and yet she was not "hot"; her love to God and Christ, and the saints, was not ardent and flaming; it was not like coals of fire, that give most vehement flame, which many waters cannot quench the {sic: that?} had not fervency of spirit in the service of the Lord; nor was she zealous for the truths of the Gospel, and for the ordinances of it, and for the house of God and its discipline; nor did she warmly oppose all sin, and every error and false way.

I would thou wert cold or hot; which must be understood, not absolutely, but comparatively; and not that it was an indifferent thing to Christ whether she was one or the other; but he alludes to what is natural among men, it being generally more agreeable to have anything entirely hot, or entirely cold, than to be neither; and so uses this phrase to show his detestation of lukewarmness, and that it is better to be ignorant, and not a professor of religion, than to be a vain and carnal one; Christ desires not simply that she might be cold, but that she might be sensible of her need of spiritual heat and fervency. *END OF QUOTE*

***threebigrocks*** · Feb 25th 2008, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by bbrandy2002

I'm a believer that once your saved your always saved, however last night I was reading over Revelation. Maybe this is a silly question but its says in the letters to the(Rev.3) Laodicean church that lukewarm christians will be vomited from his mouth. I have heard this saying many times, I'm curious though does this mean that a lukewarm christian will not get into heaven, and in essence have lost thier salvation? I've been a christian for 20 years, I'm still learning but this just struck me. Can someone help me with this question. Thanks.

I see lukewarm as equal to a "couch potato". They weren't unbelievers, but they didn't walk the talk. Stuck in neutral so to speak. Stagnant.

Those such as these will not gain the reward they hope for in heaven.

**cnw** · Feb 25th 2008, 04:13 AM

I have to go back to Jesus words "the road is narrow and few are they that go thereby." I think this means more than people realize. there are few true Christians. I know the verse that says lukewarm Christians and it doesn't say they walked in sin, they just didn't do anything. I was thinking you were talking about Corinthians for some reason and carnal. That is another topic.

**danlevans** · Feb 25th 2008, 06:23 AM

This scripture might answer the question once saved always saved debate.

Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

If your name is in the book of life you must be saved and it looks like your name can be taken out of the Book of Life.

**jgreene** · Feb 25th 2008, 12:28 PM

Here's the actual scripture from Revelation 3:

14) To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ' I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16) 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

You can see that the writer never really calls those in the Church of Laodicea "christians." He uses the word "Church" (ekklēsia in the greek) to describe the Laodiceans. The word "ekklesia" literally means a gathering of people called out for a meeting. I think, in context, it's probably referring to a predominately Christian gathering....but I'm no expert on exegesis.

My personal belief is that there is no such thing as OSAS. However, I believe that it really shouldn't matter to those actively pursuing the Lord in their life, which is where we should all strive to be.

***9Marksfan*** · Feb 25th 2008, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by cnw

Xel, that is what I was eluding to in an earlier thread we were on. I personally believe that carnal means you have the head knowledge of Christianity but not the heart knowledge. Have you ever read Hebrews? It is a really good book but very heavy. I believe once you are saved you are always saved, but I believe that so very few people are saved in the first place.

Excellent point. There will be MANY on that Great and Awesome Day to whom Christ will say "Depart from me, I never knew you" - never means never - He won't say "I no longer know you". As several verses teach us, being a Christian means knowing God and being known by Him.

***9Marksfan*** · Feb 25th 2008, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Slug1

God knows who is saved and who is not saved and I would not expect the Word of God to call one who is not saved, a Christian.

So to be referred to as a Christian must mean, one who is saved.

The scripture in the OP is referring to Christians who seem to be rejected, IOW's salvation wasn't secure.

No - the church at Laodicea was the same as all churches - a mixed bag of those who were truly saved and those who weren't - Jesus speaks of "some of you" who have been faithful and "some" who are not - in Laodicea, it seems that there was hardly any real Christians - maybe none - but there was still time to repent - and Jesus urged them to do so.

***9Marksfan*** · Feb 25th 2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Xel'Naga

The problem is. . . That we aren't able to make those value judgments; only God knows the state of a persons heart.

Why is that a problem? It's so that we're all kept on our toes! Is that a problem?!?

I think it very well may be that at one point a person was truly™ saved, and at another, turned away to deny Christ before men.

I don't believe there are any such passages, properly understood.

The problem with such a position (that those who lose their salvation weren't saved to begin with, and never really 'had salvation') is that the scripture in question explicitly calls these people Christian.

Chapter and verse, please. What it does is treat the visible churches as genuine - giving everyone the benefit of the doubt - but allows for the fact that they will turn out to be a "mixed bag".

I believe it relates quite well to certain fig trees. . . .

The fig tree is Israel, which was also a mixed bag, of course! There is nothing new under the sun......