Once saved always saved....

[9Marksfan]

2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours (would this be the TRUE believers since John includes himself) but also for the sins of the whole world (would this be everyone else since the use of the words "but also").

John makes a clear distinction that He atoned for ALL and not just the elect.

In my other post I meant to take a shot at the elect crowd but I forgot.

If Christ's propitiation was truly for every single inidividual, then there are only two possible conclusions to be drawn:-

1) Every individual will be saved;

2) Christ's propitiation was insufficient to save ANYONE and needs to be "completed" by our faith - this makes us atone for our unbelief by believing and is a very subtle and dangerous form of salvation partly by Christ's death and partly by our faith (and repentance, of course, because that is how we stay saved after we are first saved, because Christ's death only dealt with PAST sins! Er, weren't they ALL future when Christ died.....???).

Another interpretation of I Jn 2:2 is that Christ is not only the propitiation of the sins of John and his readers but of people from every nation, tribe, tongue and people (a perfectly possible meaning for cosmos, as I'm sure you know - the same meaning that can be ascribed to Jn 3:16).

[jshears]

I have done that COUNTLESS times in this thread and even in the last 100 post or so... I assumed since you commented that I was wrong... you at least read what I have been saying?

Having the Spirit of adoption is not having the adoption in actuality. You have it by faith and you have the earnest (described as that elsewhere) of the promise IF you continue until the end. Then that adoption becomes an actuality. It isn't that hard... Paul explains it in that entire text. We hope... not for what we have but for what we yet don't have... etc. Again... show me my error.

Here is the text yet again.

Romans 8:12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 ¶For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I see what you're saying... It's just the fact that Paul says we're already sons of God, and heirs of God, and we've received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba, Father (we couldn't do that if the adoption had not already occurred) You can see that in Romans 8, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1. We are heirs of God presently, meaning we're already a part of God's family, hence already adopted, as heirs we have an inheritance which we will claim when the Lord comes back, at the resurrection. We are already adopted, but we aren't experiencing the full blessing of it yet --not until he comes.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

We can't be sons NOW as John said, if we're not already adopted into God's family.Anyway, as I said previously we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

[9Marksfan]

Why would you think that myself or Ken or anyone else in the NOSAS camp would be "uncertain"? If we endure to the end, stay the course, finish the race, and walk on the narrow we will "certainly" receive the promises of God. I am certain of that, for that is what is written.

But none of you is certain NOW!! As you, Ken and all the other NOSAS folk who have read any of my posts will know already, OF COURSE I agree with you that ONLY those who endure to the end will be saved - where we differ is that we can have assurance NOW that we WILL persevere to the end - it's called the witness of the Spirit! And we only receive it as we believe and persevere - as Ken says, we're really not that far away from each other.

The way I see it, any assurance you guys get isn't real, because it's not guaranteed - God leaves it up to us to avail ourselves of His grace!

[ProjectPeter]

A hit and run post...

Morning PP,

Your point is duly noted and agree, there are and will be folks who will turn from the faith… but anything that is just intellectual, as well as anything just emotional -- will be just that… The point is that there are those who will fall away, and there are those who won’t, and those who don’t were kept by God not to, because they are of God… Plain and simple. The discerning factor is God’s Spirit regenerating those who are truly saved… those who are born again, born of the Spirit. This cannot be ignored or swept aside.

The hard part to discern is, who are the ones kept by God; who are of the remnant; who are of the elect; who are of His sheep; who are of the wheat; those whose soil have been tilled by God; those who are the children of God; those born of God; those who are the chosen?

John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Again, the fall back is with self-examination…. What saves me? Am I saved? Do I do and walk in the works of salvation? Is Jesus indeed within me? Am I…. ?

Seeking to know the answer to these and more self-examining questions will lead one to the word for finding the security of the calling of God as His child.


For His glory...

It isn't hard to discern at all. It is WHOSOEVER believes in Him and that believing is one that is present and active... ALWAYS. And fact as well... once a person has been saved (in actuality... once endured) then no one can snatch them out of the hand of Christ. Who is that sheep... the one that followed. Not for a day... week... month... a year... even 40 years. But the one that followed until the end be that a day, week, month, year, or 40... or more.

[ProjectPeter]

I see what you're saying... It's just the fact that Paul says we're already sons of God, and heirs of God, and we've received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba, Father (we couldn't do that if the adoption had not already occurred) You can see that in Romans 8, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1. We are heirs of God presently, meaning we're already a part of God's family, hence already adopted, as heirs we have an inheritance which we will claim when the Lord comes back, at the resurrection. We are already adopted, but we aren't experiencing the full blessing of it yet --not until he comes.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

We can't be sons NOW as John said, if we're not already adopted into God's family.Anyway, as I said previously we'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

The Spirit is given to us as earnest. Why do we need earnest if we have in actuality been paid in full?

[jshears]

The Spirit is given to us as earnest. Why do we need earnest if we have in actuality been paid in full?

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13,14)

The Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, not our adoption. I've been adopted but I don't have all of my inheritance yet. I have the down payment of the Spirit of God but the redemption of my body (Romans 8) hasn't yet happened. And I could have no inheritance ALREADY, if there hadn't ALREADY been an adoption.

[9Marksfan]

Nigel,

Faith knows and if a person has a "faith" that doesn't really believe... how can that be faith at all?

As to God's promises.... He doesn't break those promises as long as we do what He tells us to do. If we don't... we won't see the promise.

His promises are unconditional - oitherwise they wouldn't be promises, but contracts!

[Partaker of Christ]

Actually it is about changing your mind... turning from your sin and turning to God. Any person would throw themselves at the mercy of God when they're toast or whatever. But just saying OH LORD HAVE MERCY and calling that good... read the parable of the unforgiving servant. It don't work. It's more than just crying for mercy... it is CHANGING the mind and with that the action.

So pour out all the analogies you want about the sick man and the moon... repentance is what it is.

And was the unforgiving servant held to keeping a promise?
Did the king say, I will forgive you if you promise xyz?

You can cut out all the passages of scripture you like Ken, but the truth will not go away.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

God wants your heart:

The difference with the publican and the servant, was that the publican's heart was changed. If you do xyz without your heart being changed, then it is no more then lip service. If your heart has not been changed, you are whitewashed on the outside, but still full of dead men's bones on the inside. If the servant had had his heart changed then, he would have naturally forgiven his debtor.

He who has been forgiven much, loves much.

[2 Peter 2:20]

If Christ's propitiation was truly for every single inidividual, then there are only two possible conclusions to be drawn:-

1) Every individual will be saved;

2) Christ's propitiation was insufficient to save ANYONE and needs to be "completed" by our faith - this makes us atone for our unbelief by believing and is a very subtle and dangerous form of salvation partly by Christ's death and partly by our faith (and repentance, of course, because that is how we stay saved after we are first saved, because Christ's death only dealt with PAST sins! Er, weren't they ALL future when Christ died.....???).

Another interpretation of I Jn 2:2 is that Christ is not only the propitiation of the sins of John and his readers but of people from every nation, tribe, tongue and people (a perfectly possible meaning for cosmos, as I'm sure you know - the same meaning that can be ascribed to Jn 3:16).

3) Christ's propitiation was sufficient to save ANYONE that accepts Christ as Lord by believing in their heart and confessing with their mouth and it is done by grace through faith. However, not ALL will accept this. In other words...ALL CAN be saved but NOT ALL WILL be saved.

[ProjectPeter]

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13,14)

The Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, not our adoption. I've been adopted but I don't have all of my inheritance yet. I have the down payment of the Spirit of God but the redemption of my body (Romans 8) hasn't yet happened. And I could have no inheritance ALREADY, if there hadn't ALREADY been an adoption.

You don't have the inheritance yet. Nor the adoption which is exactly the inheritance because without it... you aren't a son of God. Again... that is EXACTLY what Paul is telling us in Romans 8. If you had it already... why do you need to hope? If you were already a son of God and you already were participating in eternal life... there is no need of faith. You don't need faith for something already there. That is also why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13... NOW abideth faith, hope and love. There is going to be a time when there is no need for "faith" because we will have that prize. There will be no need for hope... we will have the inheritance and adoption as sons. That is why the greatest of all those things is love... because in the end... love will always be the one thing that never fades away because we will be in the very presence of love personified.

[ProjectPeter]

His promises are unconditional - oitherwise they wouldn't be promises, but contracts!

Um... no they are not unconditional. That is just something man has made up somewhere. It is required that we endure to the end and even POTS folk understand that. It is required that we believe and yes... even POTS folk believe that. It is even required that we are obedient to Christ.... etc. So there is nothing at all "unconditional" about this.

[Redeemed by Grace]

It isn't hard to discern at all. It is WHOSOEVER believes in Him and that believing is one that is present and active... ALWAYS. And fact as well... once a person has been saved (in actuality... once endured) then no one can snatch them out of the hand of Christ. Who is that sheep... the one that followed. Not for a day... week... month... a year... even 40 years. But the one that followed until the end be that a day, week, month, year, or 40... or more.

Ipso facto, then by your statement, you won’t know that you are one of His sheep until you die and judged at the end?

[ProjectPeter]

And was the unforgiving servant held to keeping a promise?
Did the king say, I will forgive you if you promise xyz?

You can cut out all the passages of scripture you like Ken, but the truth will not go away.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

God wants your heart:

The difference with the publican and the servant, was that the publican's heart was changed. If you do xyz without your heart being changed, then it is no more then lip service. If your heart has not been changed, you are whitewashed on the outside, but still full of dead men's bones on the inside. If the servant had had his heart changed then, he would have naturally forgiven his debtor.

He who has been forgiven much, loves much.

The publican was simply justified. He was not in position... that is all. If the dude continued to the end... he would be saved. Just as if the Pharisee repented and himself continued to the end... he would be saved. Rest your little self assured... I ain't the one cutting anything out of Scripture.

[ProjectPeter]

Ipso facto, then by your statement, you won’t know that you are one of His sheep until you die and judged at the end?

Uh... if one didn't know then that is one that has no faith RbG. How many times must I say that for you guys to actually get it?

[2 Peter 2:20]

But none of you is certain NOW!! As you, Ken and all the other NOSAS folk who have read any of my posts will know already, OF COURSE I agree with you that ONLY thosde who endure to the end will be saved - where we differ is that we can have assurance NOW that we WILL persevere to the end - it's called the witness of the Spirit! And we only receive it as we believe and persevere - as Ken says, we're really not that far away from each other.

The way I see it, any assurance you guys get isn't real, because it's not guaranteed - God leaves it up to us to avail ourselves of His grace!

Now, how do you know that I am not certain now? It is certain as long as I heed the warnings of Paul, Peter, John, etc. to continue in the faith, make my calling and election sure, endure to the end and continue to work out my own salvation. IF I do these things I will be receive eternal life. That is His promise to Christians but He also has a promise of condemnation for those who do not do these things. This is to Christians as well for the ungodly and the sinner already stands condemned.

1 Peter 4:17-18
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"