Once saved always saved....

[Partaker of Christ]

No, that is how you understand it though. You put all you understand into some of the verses. Look at all of them. Let's do it again:


Rom8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
We are after the things of the Spirit now
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
We have died to sin and now live
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The Spirit is already in us
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
We would not be deptors if it has not happened yet
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
You are actually living when you die to sin
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
When you are lead by God you are His son
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Remeber v9, we are supposed to be living in the spirit now
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
His Spirit is our spirit's witness
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
We cannot wait to see God's plan for us completed.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
We once lived for self but now have hope because of what He has done
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
We can be delivered from the bondage of sin to the glorious liberty of God
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
We do not have to carry the burden of sin any longer. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(they) Speaking of the ones that have not realized yet.
We have the firstfruits of the Spirit now in actuality, we only need to wait for the completion of the adoption process.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
A sure hope that it is going to happen 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
We actually know that it is coming so we wait patiently for the fulfillment

Hi Buck shot!!

"We actually know that [what we have] is coming"

Excellent

[ProjectPeter]

It was (and still is) either a cheap shot, or you misunderstood.

The point being made was, can a person who has truly believed, end up in unbelief? Does someone 'stop' believing?
It could happen if that belief was through merely intellect or emmotion.

He might deny that belief, but he would still believe.

I have not for one minute inferred that it is ok to deny, you put that in.

Uh... you are saying they deny. So if you are saying they can deny but then say you aren't saying they can deny... then I haven't a clue what you are trying to say.

[Partaker of Christ]

Do you remember the Galatian church? Those that BEGAN in the Spirit but were now living according to the flesh? Did not Paul tell them that those who did this had fallen from grace?

And you shared this same thing before earlier in this thread. You are doing the same thing you did then. I did not say that the Spirit isn't in a believe now. Never said, implied, hinted, nor would I dare. The Spirit in a believer is there... but once again... as with King Saul... that Spirit can be withdrawn.

The Spirit was upon (with) King Saul, but were does it say that the Spirit was in him?

[Partaker of Christ]

Yes... we are all that. That too is what you guys have seen me write over and over again for 20,000 plus post on this forum. Let me find that emoticon thingy again here....

Then why do you go and add your little if's and but's?

What does freely gave mean?

[Partaker of Christ]

Ok, answer me this - were everyone's sins ACTUALLY paid for in full? If so, how can God ask for payment again once those who don't believe have died? If it's because they remained in unbelief, was that unbelief sin? If so, was it paid for? If so, why is payment for it required? If not, does believing atone for it?

I have said this before.
God cannot just pardon sin, it has to first be paid for.
The wages of sin is death. If it has not been paid for, then it cannot be pardoned. God said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. That is justice (balanced scales), anything other is unjust.
Christ paid the eye for an eye, and He paid the tooth for a tooth for us, if we will by grace through faith recieve it.

[Partaker of Christ]

What is your difficulty with POTS? DOn't you believe that the good soil represents the regenerated heart, the one that is the "heart of flesh" - noble and good because God has renewed it?

Yes, but I don't know fully what POTS is.
I know we agree with much, from what I have seen in your potty pots posts

[Partaker of Christ]

Ah... NOSAS folk don't love, show love or accept love! I feel my emoticon thingy coming on again.

Well I did say some, but hey we OSAS'ers don't love, because (according to you) we want keep our excuses for sin.

LOVE
1Co 13:5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

[2 Peter 2:20]

Because, by your own admission, you don't believe you HAVE eternal life HERE AND NOW.

I believe I am qualified for it right now.

Wow - and you think THAT'S assurance?!?! And that eternal life is a reward for all that?

One thing I am certain of is God's judgment. It will always be just...always. Those who seek glory and honor will receive eternal life and those that don't won't.

Depends how you define "judgement" and "family of God".

1. krima (κρίμα, 2917) denotes (a) “the sentence pronounced, a verdict, a condemnation, the decision resulting from an investigation,” e.g., Mark 12:40; Luke 23:40; 1 Tim. 3:6; Jude 4; (b) “the process of judgment leading to a decision,” 1 Pet. 4:17 (“judgment”)

House of God is exactly what it is. You could say that it is the "temple" of the body. Since Peter is speaking of suffering.

[2 Peter 2:20]

I like the order! It's in order of how biblical each doctrine is!

I didn't want you to get upset so I put you first!

[2 Peter 2:20]

I REALLY can't believe you're saying that - I would actually say it's the greatest sin - the unpardonable sin.....

See the definition of the Greek...

1) can be sin
2) I don't think is sin
3) same as 2

But hey I have been known to be wrong! Don't tell Buckshot...He thinks I'm perfect.

[My heart's Desire]

Why would you think that myself or Ken or anyone else in the NOSAS camp would be "uncertain"? If we endure to the end, stay the course, finish the race, and walk on the narrow we will "certainly" receive the promises of God. I am certain of that, for that is what is written.

Maybe because it might be possible it is in that "if" word. Maybe because "if" means one might not endure? If one might not endure then how can one be certain?

[My heart's Desire]

Why do I always hit this thread late at night? I see we're still floating in circles. night night.

[Michael K]

Maybe because it might be possible it is in that "if" word. Maybe because "if" means one might not endure? If one might not endure then how can one be certain?

Read the Book of Job.

If Job's salvation had been assured, there would have been no need for this book in the Bible.

If you look at the Bible in its totality, you will see that the message is revealed throughout. If one portion must be ignored in order to support another, then the interpretation of the one which remains should be questioned.

In order to believe in OSAS, no matter what one does throughout their life, requires that you overlook the passages which do not support this.

Are therr passages which can be interpreted on their own that seemingly imply that one is saved no matter what they do thereafter? Sure, but when they are compared with other passages which plainly do not support this interpretation, the question then arises;
Are the passages that do not support the OSAS belief, in error? I believe the Bible cantains no errors and therefore, when I find two seemingly irreconcilable interpretations, I look for the common ground that they both share.

In the case of OSAS, there are passages which clearly say with no equivocation that the truly saved can be drawn away after they have received the gift. On this there is no dispute. There are many passages, when taken out of context with all those that say otherwise, that imply that through faith we are guaranteed salvation. Since the Bible contains no errors, these two seemingly opposed scriptures must then be compared to see where they share common ground.

If you look closely, you will see that the passages that seemingly guarantee salvation and those that clearly state that salvation can be rejected, contain one common element...faith.

In those that seemingly say one is guaranteed salvation (OSAS), we see throughout them that the guarantee is predicated upon our true belief and faith in Jesus Christ.
In those that say there is no further sacrifice to those who were once saved and had received the gift of salvation if they reject the Holy Spirit and they truly disown God.
Where is the common element here?
In both cases, salvation is assured if one remains faithful to God, and endures to the end of their life.

In other words, the OSAS belief is true, as long as we want it to be.
The NOSAS belief is just as true, if one no longer desires that it be true, and they knowingly reject their faith.
The common element here is that ones faith must never waiver.

The Book of Job is the classic example of someone remaining faithful throughout extreme personal adversity.
When taken in the entire context of the Bible, Job's salvation was at stake throughout his test, and if he had rejected it because of everything that was happening in his life, he would have done so with full knowledge of the cost, he would have known that God was real, but in his dispair, he would not have cared, and his salvation would have been forfeit...so much for OSAS, no matter what.
The temptation to reject God when faced with adversity is sinister and very real.

The story that the truly saved should take away from the Book of Job is this;
No matter what happens in our life, our faith must remain and when it does, so shall our salvation.
May God Bless

[2 Peter 2:20]

Maybe because it might be possible it is in that "if" word. Maybe because "if" means one might not endure? If one might not endure then how can one be certain?

I am certain that if I listen to the Spirit, am led by the Spirit and do not grieve or quench it I will receive eternal life. At the same time I am certain that if I don't do these things then I will stand condemned on that day. The only thing that is certain is what God says and I know John 10:28 but the Bible didn't stop there. I can't take this one passage and throw out the dozens of other passages that Paul, Peter, James, and even John wrote.

Galatians
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

These things are for certain.

[9Marksfan]

I have said this before.
God cannot just pardon sin, it has to first be paid for.
The wages of sin is death. If it has not been paid for, then it cannot be pardoned. God said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. That is justice (balanced scales), anything other is unjust.
Christ paid the eye for an eye, and He paid the tooth for a tooth for us, if we will by grace through faith recieve it.

But that's not a finished salvation that we receive by faith! That's a partial salvation that takes our faith to complete it! Unbelief HAS to be atoned for by Christ - we DON'T atone for it by believing!