Once saved always saved....

[ProjectPeter]

Maybe I misunderstand you but I thought that you meant that you believe God choses which ones will (can) be saved before birth. If you believe He choses between individuals, why would you think He would chose one that He knows will fall away? Seems that you are giving God all the power He rightly deserves but then have Him cast pearls to the swine. My view is that He calls us all but not all will answer, yours seems to be He calls some and some of those will answer. Why would an all knowing God call someone that was not going to finish the course if He choses the ones that He calls before they are born?

Um.... I think you have me WAY confused with someone else.

[Buck shot]

Um.... I think you have me WAY confused with someone else.

Good!

[ProjectPeter]

Another AMEN !

You know... that honestly is something that is a marvel to me. I know there were some of the newer old dead guys that taught this and you know... once upon a time folks just didn't have the resources we have today and maybe not even the education levels... whatever. Sure there are differences between the Old and New Testaments in how we can now approach God and no more need of sacrifice etc. But when folks change the very nature of God... I honestly don't get that idea of dispensationalism. Age of the Law... Prophets... Judges... even Church... works fine. But when we start saying things like dispensation of GRACE and actually believing that... we have to show that all other time was a dispensation of NOT GRACE. That changes the very being of God and I find that a dangerous thing. Just don't get it.

[Teke]

52 pages on the same subject, wowww.....

How about I bring up the law, the same one that condemned Jesus. The old "anathema" meaning. Would anyone get it?

Put it this way, if your saved, as in having been called by God to salvation, you are or have become what is considered "holy". According to the law, anything that holy cannot be redeemed it can only be killed or destroyed.

So where does that leave the "saved"?

[Redeemed by Grace]

You know... that honestly is something that is a marvel to me. I know there were some of the newer old dead guys that taught this and you know... once upon a time folks just didn't have the resources we have today and maybe not even the education levels... whatever. Sure there are differences between the Old and New Testaments in how we can now approach God and no more need of sacrifice etc. But when folks change the very nature of God... I honestly don't get that idea of dispensationalism. Age of the Law... Prophets... Judges... even Church... works fine. But when we start saying things like dispensation of GRACE and actually believing that... we have to show that all other time was a dispensation of NOT GRACE. That changes the very being of God and I find that a dangerous thing. Just don't get it.

I agree...

Acts 13:23 "From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,


And here is our twist, I think.... because God is love in nature, and His love is not reactive like mans', [for we love Him because He first loved us] His love is declarative without cause on whom He declares and lasts and lasts and lasts....eternally... Thus He who loved us first will keep us.... for if He loves us, and is within us loving Himself back through us by His Spirit.... His love is eternal

[Buck shot]

Let's try to get back on tract.

After over 50 pages, what have ya'll learned?

Here is my take:

NOSAS: spectrum from (right wing) secure in salvation as long as they are walking with the Lord to (left wing) justify sin so they can live without being in daily fear of damnation.

OSAS: spectrum from (right wing) secure in salvation, walking with the Lord to (left wing) God is Love, do whatever feels good.

Both side have scripture they believe backs up their beliefs.

[mwj450]

I believe that people in this age, once saved upon believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), will always be saved from eternal damnation. The trouble that most people face like Project Peter is that there ARE verses that teach that people CAN lose their salvation, so they grab ahold of those and claim them for today but they are not for this age dispensationally.
Today we are bought with a price UPON belief, we are sealed INTO the very BODY of Christ by his blood and BLOOD is thicker than water folks. If we are to LOSE our salvation today, that would mean that Christ's body has become mutilated!!!!
Satan is the great "ACCUSER of the brethren!" He wants people to go to hell first, then he wants Christians to DOUBT their salvation by pointing at their SINS but Christ can't remember them anymore because he has BEGOTTEN us by his blood and his holy word.
People that say we can lose our salvation today once we already had it is influenced by the ACCUSER, that old roaring lion, the Devil!

Claim his promises brothers and sisters and make sure to rightly DIVIDE the word of truth.

How can you determine what verses are ment for this day in age. Jesus washed his disiples feet, we dont do that in our society today. you may say well it was common in there culture but not ours. So how can you determine what we should still do today. Every verse that I have come across that seems to prove OSAS is CONDITIONAL. there are conditions that must be met in order to keep your salvation. Roman 8:1 "there is no condemnation to people in christ jesus" CONDITIONAL. please explain 1 Cor. 6:9 It says a drunkard, idoliter, swindler, sexually immoral, homosexuals, prostitutes, will not inherit the kingdom of god. ok lets say Hitler became a christian as a kid, if he cannot lose his salvation 30 or 40 years later he does the genocide thing, your saying Adolf Hitler is sitting on God's right hand.

[mwj450]

Another person... Charles Manson, If he was baptised at any time before had all these people killed, if you cannot lose your salvation Manson and Hitler are best buds up in heaven right now. If your saying you cannot fall from the grace of God. How can you justify manson in heaven.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Another person... Charles Manson, If he was baptised at any time before had all these people killed, if you cannot lose your salvation Manson and Hitler are best buds up in heaven right now. If your saying you cannot fall from the grace of God. How can you justify manson in heaven.

Aren't you making assumptions? And based on what? Baptism?

IMO, I think we assume things of others that are better left to God, but don't disagree that we have charge to judge based on fruit.... If anyone believes and submit to Jesus as Lord and Savior, I'd say that they would be a new creation and that the fruit of their salvation would be good fruit, one that God has prepared for them to walk in..

For His glory...

[Buck shot]

How can you determine what verses are ment for this day in age. Jesus washed his disiples feet, we dont do that in our society today. you may say well it was common in there culture but not ours. So how can you determine what we should still do today. Every verse that I have come across that seems to prove OSAS is CONDITIONAL. there are conditions that must be met in order to keep your salvation. Roman 8:1 "there is no condemnation to people in Christ Jesus" CONDITIONAL. please explain 1 Cor. 6:9 It says a drunkard, idoliter, swindler, sexually immoral, homosexuals, prostitutes, will not inherit the kingdom of god. ok lets say Hitler became a christian as a kid, if he cannot lose his salvation 30 or 40 years later he does the genocide thing, your saying Adolf Hitler is sitting on God's right hand.

1 Cor 6:5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Washed 628. apolouw apolouo, ap-ol-oo'-o
from 575 and 3068; to wash fully, i.e. (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively):--wash (away).

Santified 37. agiazw hagiazo, hag-ee-ad'-zo
from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate:--hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Justified 1344. dikaiow dikaioo, dik-ah-yo'-o
from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

I think you are reading conditional into the verses but that's my opinion. If you put some of the verses around the verse you are reading you can understand it a lot better.

You are the only one that has mentioned Hitler but I did get a good laugh out of it!

[Buck shot]

Another person... Charles Manson, If he was baptised at any time before had all these people killed, if you cannot lose your salvation Manson and Hitler are best buds up in heaven right now. If your saying you cannot fall from the grace of God. How can you justify manson in heaven.

If you believe being baptized gets you saved then you need to do some more reading. No one is justify...

Never mind I think now I'm casting pearls...

[valleybldr]

Another person... Charles Manson, If he was baptised at any time before had all these people killed, if you cannot lose your salvation Manson and Hitler are best buds up in heaven right now. If your saying you cannot fall from the grace of God. How can you justify manson in heaven.

Thus begins the OSAS dance. I like to point out that OSAS preacher José Luis De Jesús Miranda preaches with an SSS and/or 666 on the lectern, the walls and his followers bodies. SSS represents "salvo, siempre salvo" Spanish for OSAS. The self proclaimed anti-Christ uses OSAS as the backbone of his gospel. That does not, in and of itself, make OSAS wrong but if you study the man, his message and his followers you will see OSAS at it's logical extreme. Go ahead, find a OSAS proponent who will condemn the self-proclaimed Anti-Christ. Let me know when you find one because you will find their whole belief system in the same place as Miranda. todd

[Teke]

Another person... Charles Manson, If he was baptised at any time before had all these people killed, if you cannot lose your salvation Manson and Hitler are best buds up in heaven right now. If your saying you cannot fall from the grace of God. How can you justify manson in heaven.

This is an assumption that salvation is a free ticket to heaven. In reality it means things just got harder for you.

Jesus said, "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[RogerW]

I agree that regeneration precedes faith. Regeneration isn't belief. That is not what I am asking you to support. I am beginning to believe you have a reading comprehension problem. You have previously asserted that BEING SAVED precedes BELIEVING. I asked for you to show any verse where BEING SAVED precedes BELIEVING. If there is a verse that says so, it should be easy enough for you to find using a concordance. You haven't been able to show me one, because in every instance belief precedes being saved. See Rom. 10:9-10 Acts 16:29-30 etc. Your previous comments remain unsupported and are bereft of Scripture.

How do you define regeneration? According to Scripture we were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But...the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared (becomes visible), not by works which we have done, but according to His mercy...HOW...BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, being JUSTIFIED (just, innocent, made righteous) by His grace.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Please try very hard to comprehend the passage. We are dead; i.e. without spiritual life. Then the love of Christ becomes visible to us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit and we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ. Regeneration, and renewing of our minds, being declared justified by His grace through the power of the Holy Spirit, all simultaneous events that come by hearing (hearing His voice) the Word.

It is true that we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart unto salvation. But how are we, who are spiritually dead able to confess and believe? The context of the passage in Ro 10 tells us clearly. Vs 8 says the Word is near, in your mouth, and in your heart...what Word? The Word of faith, which is preached. But who can call upon the name of the Lord in whom they have not believed, and have not heard? Answer: no one! How do we believe, how do we hear? Through the Word of faith; the gospel of peace/salvation, because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In Acts 16 when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved. They said:

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Did the jailer believe and become saved by osmosis? No! Paul and Silas preaced to him and his family the Word of the Lord. It was AFTER hearing the Word of the Lord that he (jailer) and his house believed, and was baptized. For how shall they believe in whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher? Perfect harmony of Scripture...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Ac 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Many Blessings,
RW

[9Marksfan]

That's a OSAS Protestant trump card. The two work (sorry;-) in tension together but are not oppossed to one another. todd

I think it's the word "condition" that offends us so much - I agree there is a tension between God's role and ours, but perhaps we can actually find some agreement - whose role is the decisive one?