Posting Freak
Jesus says we can't be neutral - "he who is not for me is against me and he who does not gather with me, scatters abroad". I would try reading Luke 14:25ff and see if such people have the right to be called disciples of Jesus.Originally Posted by threebigrocks
I think you'll find that it's a bit worse than that.......Those such as these will not gain the reward they hope for in heaven.
Posting Freak
So you think this centuries long debate can be settled by a verse that merely "looks like" it says your name can be blotted out? It's an encouraging verse! No - it says God will not blot it out - no matter what. Many translations say "never".
Posting Freak
Although I wouldn't agree with your statement at the start of your final paragraph, everything else is spot on! We should ALL be actively pursuing the Lord in our lives and encouraging all professing believers to do so as well! That is the ONLY place of safety and the ONLY place where we will experience full assurance of faith!Here's the actual scripture from Revelation 3:
14) To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ' I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16) 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
You can see that the writer never really calls those in the Church of Laodicea "christians." He uses the word "Church" (ekklēsia in the greek) to describe the Laodiceans. The word "ekklesia" literally means a gathering of people called out for a meeting. I think, in context, it's probably referring to a predominately Christian gathering....but I'm no expert on exegesis.
My personal belief is that there is no such thing as OSAS. However, I believe that it really shouldn't matter to those actively pursuing the Lord in their life, which is where we should all strive to be.
Newbie
Thanks everyone for responding, I know that this can be a sensitive subject and there is a lot of interpretations to either point. But it makes me wonder, are the "cold" christian that Jesus speaks of going to heaven, or is he meaning he would rather they be cold than Lukewarm. I know that a lukewarm christian does more harm to the faith than a cold one (of course I'm positive he would want those to be hot instead of cold). My mind is going in overdrive and maybe I'm putting more into than it intended, but I don't know. Sorry for my confusion, but thanks for your replies.
Posting Freak
One of the things to remember here is that the "hot" and "cold" may not necessarily mean "good" and "bad" (but I'll return to that shortly). It's important to be aware of the geography around Laodicea. It had many natural hot spring pools within which one could bathe (as eg in New Zealand or anywhere where there is geyser activity) - soothing and cleansing - there was also pure, refreshing drinking water to be had from certain springs too - refreshing and pleasant. But one could also get lukewarm water there, which had heavy lime deposits, making it completely unpalatable to drink and too cold to bathe in - Jesus is saying that their lives are useless - and nauseating. Quite literally, they make Him sick.
There is also a possibility that Jesus is saying that it's better for the to be cold than lukewarm, for at least then they won't be hypocrites and won't face such harsh judgement. This may be what John is alluding to here:-
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Rev 22:11 NKJV
If so, as Clifton says, it's better to be hot all the time!
"Never lag in zeal and in earnest endeavor; be aglow and burning with the Spirit, serving the Lord." Rom 12:11 Amplified Bible
The word translated by many versions "fervent" really means "boiling"!
Reverting to the "cold" in its positive sense, though - there are some Christians who "refresh our spirit[s] in the Lord" by their zeal and love - and there are others whose lives have a healing and relaxing effect on us - like a warm bath! We should be one or the other - not lukewarm!
If "cold" does mean bad, we certainly don't want to be in THAT camp! But "lukewarm" is worst of all.........
Hunting the derail-inator
Here's what Jesus said in John 10:27-29
27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen._______________________________________________There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
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Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!
Senior Member
This is true - it is one of the things we learn when learning Greek, that the word εκκλησια (and it's declined forms thereof) <1577> never refers to a "building". Better translations would be "assemblies" or "congregations". But to put it simply, if such letters like in Revelation were written today and the word "Church" was used, say in the U.S., it would be like:
"to the church in New York"
"to the church in Chicago"
"to the church in Los Angeles"
etc., which would refer to the believers in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles.
I have just replied this in another thread:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Preparing
thing is - those sheep follow the Shepherd. They count and depend on Him for everything - food, shearing, shelter. Look at how sheep will follow.
The sheep are not sitting idlely by, they are in the process of, actively, following the Shepherd.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
Preparing
Well, actually it's a double whammy. Not only do they not gain God and heaven and salvation - they gain hell.
It's all or nothing, correct. We are completely for Him or against Him.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
All Christians go to Heaven.
next!
Preparing
Ever play that game where you blindfold a person or hide something and then give clues as to how close to - or far from - the person or object they are?
Cold would be far away, correct? If we are far away from God - we are not with Him or close to Him.
Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
Not second or third, but first.
Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
when He is the source of all hope,
when His love is received and freely given,
holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
will all other things be added unto to you.
Posting Freak
Agreed. Would that our churches would preach this in the power of the Spirit!
Posting Freak
EXCELLENT! I remember playing those games as a child! "Cold.........still cold..........warm........warmer........hot - BOILING!!!!"
That ties in with my post that we should be "boiling for Christ"!
Thanks for a great analogy!
A Big Amen to that!!All Christians go to Heaven.
next!
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