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[quote=mwj450;1578187]Read what you wrote, Christians are the sheep (we agree) and they have to follow Him (we agree). Where is there a condition or choice there?Originally Posted by Buck shot
I show you my faith by my works. I am saved by what He did (not what I do) and because of that I will work 'till Jesus comes!
You might get away with belief+works=faith, but never faith+works=salvation!
Senior Member
Barton W. Johnson's 1891 People's New Testament Commentary can be linked to at the following sites
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts.../hg1/PNT00.HTM
http://www.studylight.org/com/pnt/
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Comme...sNewTestament/
[quote=Buck shot;1578197]you JUST said, Im saved by what He did (not what I do) you just proved my point of you dont think you are responsible for sin. since you are saved by what they did it doesnt matter what you do. Right? so you could kill someone and be put in prison and say well im still saved because of what moses did, or what noah did. that makes no sense. How can you be saved on someone elses works. Show me a verse where it says you are saved by another mans works. noah was saved by HIS OWN works, Moses was saved by HIS OWN works, Abraham was saved by HIS OWN works. you are saved by YOUR OWN works. untill you prove me wrong thats how I see it
Read what you wrote, Christians are the sheep (we agree) and they have to follow Him (we agree). Where is there a condition or choice there?
I show you my faith by my works. I am saved by what He did (not what I do) and because of that I will work 'till Jesus comes!
You might get away with belief+works=faith, but never faith+works=salvation!
Senior Member
Today I just discovered a new verse I hadn't noticed before which in my opinion disproves OSAS.
Heres the verse
Rom 8:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Below is my own paraphrase of that conditional verse Paul addresses to those who are already believers.
If you (believers) live according to the flesh, you will die (spiritually), but if by the power of the Spirit you (believers) put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live (eternally).
My point is, that it says none of those things. It is only what you and Cyprian imply.
'sozo' [saved] is not [salvation] 'soteria'
Senior Member
Is sozo in any of the following verses in reference to salvation? Secondly if sozo in the following verses isn't referring to salvation, then what is it referring to?
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
John 5:34 But the witness which I receive is not from man: howbeit I say these things, that ye may be saved.
John 10:9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Acts 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.
Acts 4:12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
Acts 16:30 Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
James 1:21 Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
I live here!
Oh for goodness sake! Please read the true verse (not as the one coming from your imagination), in at least some context.
The body of flesh is subject to death because of sin, but our spirits, which are united to Christ, have no sin, and they enjoy eternal life because of His righteousness.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The natural body is dying, and subject to affliction, disease, infirmities and finally death, because of sin. But if the Spirit of God dwells in us (by grace through faith), death is not the end, for He that raised Christ from the dead will also, in His appointed time, raise our bodies from the grave (1Co 15:12-22; 42-44). Our bodies won't always been corrupt, but will be raised in the image of Christ (1Jo 3:1-3).
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
'Therefore' (see vs 5, 6, and 9). Since the Christian is no longer guided by the flesh, and things of the world, but the kingdom of God and His righteousness, since to be fleshly-minded is a sign of absence of the Spirit, since our flesh and all pertaining to the flesh will die, and we will be raised in His likeness, we are not obligated to live for the flesh and the world, but unto Christ, Who has redeemed us. We have been freed from condemnation and death, not from obedience; but to whom much is forgiven, he will love much. We are motivated to holiness by our love for Christ and His love for us (2Co 5:14,15).
Ro 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Those who live after the flesh are already dead, and will suffer eternal death. One who has received the grace of God cannot willfully live after the flesh, because he no longer loves sin and the world; he loves Christ and His holiness. Because of the Spirit living in him, the Christians conduct of life embraces denying the flesh and walking after the Spirit (Ro 8:1). Christians live in Christ NOW, and will live with Christ FOREVER!
Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
The evidence that we are one with God in Christ, regenerated by the Holy Spirit; baptized into Christ by the Spirit; taught by the Holy Spirit; we pray, worship, praise, sing and live, led by the Spirit of God (Jo 3:6; 1Co 12:13; Jo 16:13,14; 1Co 14:15; Ga 5:16-18). Therefore we are NOW the sons of God, joint-heirs with Christ Jesus. As His adopted sons/daughters we are eternally secure in Him.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Many Blessings,
RW
Senior Member
Do you really expect me to accept anything you say, especially when you have stated that a person becomes saved before believing, even though you have never been able to come up with a single verse where being saved is said to precede belief? Your theology in my opinion is very askew, and contrary to the plain teachings of the Bible. First show me any verse where being saved precedes belief, and then maybe I might consider what you have to say.
I live here!
Alethos,
I believe I've given you several passages already, and sadly you want to pretend they don't exist. Frankly, I didn't reply to your paraphrase of Scripture thinking you might listen (although I always hold out hope), but rather to put the verse you paraphased in somewhat proper context, so others reading might see the true meaning of the passage.
Many Blessings,
RW
Senior Member
You falsely believe you have.
Now show me any verse where salvation precedes believing, and follow this simple rule. the verse must contain both the words saved or salvation along with belief, believed, or believes.
Here is an example
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
Believing precedes salvation.
You have not done that because, you can't do it.
I live here!
See posts #792 and 779. I've even already addressed in context Acts 16.
Many Blessings,
RW
Senior Member
I previously read those posts.
Now just post any verse where being saved precedes believing.
You haven't because you can't
And do you expect us to accept anything you say, especially after you manipulate the words of other posters, and then excuse yourself for being dishonest?
Did Israel believe before they were saved?
Psa 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
Psa 106:2 Who can utter the mighty acts of the LORD? who can show forth all his praise?
Psa 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;
Psa 106:5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.
Psa 106:6 We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly.
Psa 106:7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
Psa 106:8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Psa 106:9 He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness.
Psa 106:10 And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.
Psa 106:11 And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left.
Psa 106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
Psa 106:13 They soon forgot his works; they waited not for his counsel:
Psa 106:14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.
Psa 106:15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.
Psa 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.
Psa 106:17 The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.
Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.
Psa 106:19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshiped the molten image.
Psa 106:20 Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Psa 106:21 They forgot God their savior, which had done great things in Egypt;
Psa 106:22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Psa 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.
Psa 106:24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:
Psa 106:25 But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD.
Psa 106:26 Therefore he lifted up his hand against them, to overthrow them in the wilderness:
Psa 106:27 To overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands.
Psa 106:28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
Psa 106:29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague broke in upon them.
Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations forevermore.
Psa 106:32 They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes:
Psa 106:33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spoke unadvisedly with his lips.
Psa 106:34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:
Psa 106:35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
Psa 106:36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
Psa 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Psa 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Psa 106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psa 106:41 And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them.
Psa 106:42 Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand.
Psa 106:43 Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity.
Psa 106:44 Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry:
Psa 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
Psa 106:46 He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives.
Psa 106:47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise.
Psa 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
Psa 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.
Do the Lords mercies endure forever or not?
or is it:
Psa 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever. (but only if you endure to the end)
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