Once saved always saved....

[Buck shot]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (I John 2:19)

Someone that can turn away and stop believing was never truly saved to begin with.

Jesus said a couple of times the many are called but few are chosen. I wonder how many have been called among us that did walk with us for a while but then gave up, were ever born again.

I do agree with OSAS for some but I have to wonder about others. I am not sure that we should conctete of flag pole on either side of this issue. Many say it is either this way or that and there are no two right answers. I think each of us need to search our hearts and see if and why we serve God.

I know many like my grandmother that once she accepted the Lord as the head of her life she never left His side. I also know some that when trials and temptations came they jumped ship.

Were they ever saved, are they still saved? Only God really knows. For us to tell them they will never lose their salvation we could be helping them to decide they are okay without making the stands they should be making and it would be bad if they are found wanting in the day of judgement and they point at us and say he said "...".

We know that if we are serving our Father out of Love then there can be no fault found in us and we will never lose our salvation. That is for sure. We can take that to the eternal bank without fear of judgement.

I was at a conference with Jimmy D Young once and he said his biggest problem with his kin folk's book Left Behind was that they teach that we will have another chance during the Tribulation. He said he would rather teach that they won't get another chance and they do, than teach that they will and they don't. Wise words if you ask me.

The thing that we have to make sure is that we don't teach folks to question their salvation if they are trying to serve God or to teach them they have to ..... to keep their salvation. As you said in an earlier post. We can't do anything worthy enough to get it and it is not what we do that keeps it. Our salvation is based on faith thru His grace alone.


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

If you have faith in Him you have eternal life. If you do not well...

[jshears]

I do agree with OSAS for some but I have to wonder about others. I am not sure that we should conctete of flag pole on either side of this issue. Many say it is either this way or that and there are no two right answers. I think each of us need to search our hearts and see if and why we serve God.

I know many like my grandmother that once she accepted the Lord as the head of her life she never left His side. I also know some that when trials and temptations came they jumped ship.

Were they ever saved, are they still saved? Only God really knows.

I certainly haven't been a perfect individual, even since I've been saved. But it's good to know I'm secure in Christ! Salvation is a very personal thing. God knows who is saved and who isn't. I think each individual also knows whether they're truly saved or not, if they would be honest with themselves. If they don't know, they need to look in God's Word and look at their own lives and hearts. It's not for us to question the salvation of others, but to do what the Bible says. That is, to make our calling and election sure, to examine ourselves. We all need to do that, whether we believe in eternal security or not.

[Michael K]

All men are sinners. Is there such a thing as a righteous sinner? I don't think it is non-biblical to say that those who are saved by Christ are secure and saved forever. People either trust Christ to save them or something else.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

The above verses speak clearly and succinctly regarding the fate of someone who has actually been reborn and baptised in the spirit. The subject of these scriptures is someone who has no doubt been truly saved.
The question then arises;
What does "fall away" mean?
It means that someone who is saved, consciously and with full knowledge of their actions, rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit...they turn away from their salvation knowing exactly what they are doing. They spurn the Holy Spirit and turn to Satan instead, for their guidance and ultimate fate, in full knowledge of the consequences of the choice that they are making.

The story of Job is a classic example of how Satan ceaselessly tries to lure away the saved.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Is there any question that Job was not truly saved?

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God certainly believes it.
So if Job who God himself said was truly saved, remains vulnerable to Satan, how can somone today believe that they are not?

How does Satan cause someone who is truly saved, to reject the Holy Spirit and knowingly turn away from God?

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Satan made a wager with God that Job would not remain faithful if God removed His favor and protection from him. Why would God wager with Satan over Job's fate if Job were above reproach as a truly saved person? If Job were assured of his salvation, what was the purpose of the Book of Job?

Now if the Bible says that one can lose their salvation as some on this thread believe (myself included), what might be the circumstances surrounding this turning away from salvation...what would have to happen for a truly saved person to knowingly and with malice, spurn their salvation.

What if all their children were tragically killed?
Job 1:18 While he [was] yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters [were] eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

What if they lost all of their income producing property and everyone who worked there, in a massive fire?
Job 1:16 While he [was] yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Unfortunately, many have done just what Satan said that Job would do; They curse God and declare their disbelief in a God that would allow such a tragedy to befall them.

The message for us today from the story of Job is that no matter what happens to us or our loved ones we must remain faithful to God; the most important message that we should take away from this story is this; Even the most faithful and obedient Christian in the world (Job) is not above the temptation to reject the Holy Spirit if the circumstances are bad enough in their lives.
I would venture to guess that there are many former saved individuals who suffered far less than Job, who succumbed to the temptation to reject a God that they felt would allow tragedy to happen in their lives or in the lives of others, for that matter.

The bottom line is this;
Once we are Saved by Grace; truly reborn in the spirit, and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into our Hearts and minds. God will never fail us...the failure, if it comes, is entirely up to us.
As far as God is concerned, Once Saved...Always Saved is absolutely true for those who do not succumb to the temptation to reject Him for whatever reason.

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

This is what all the truly saved must do, in order to remain saved, as well...

Amen

Michael

[Buck shot]

I certainly haven't been a perfect individual, even since I've been saved. But it's good to know I'm secure in Christ! Salvation is a very personal thing. God knows who is saved and who isn't. I think each individual also knows whether they're truly saved or not, if they would be honest with themselves. If they don't know, they need to look in God's Word and look at their own lives and hearts. It's not for us to question the salvation of others, but to do what the Bible says. That is, to make our calling and election sure, to examine ourselves. We all need to do that, whether we believe in eternal security or not.

I agree with you completely

I believe that some of "those" NOSAS guys here do too. The thing that many are saying (and I have to admit that this thread has opened my eyes also) is that we need to be careful in our wording when we are teaching.

The majority of people seem to not look in God's Word or examine themselves. They just go by what they are told. My 17 year old son preached a message last night from Proverbs on Christian living. If we could all grasp what that kid taught none of us would have a problem. The thing is, on Sunday mornings the focus is on salvation in most churches. Christian living is on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights when we are preaching to the choir.

We do not seem to want to teach what should be done until after they are saved (we think). Then what happens? Then some say we are too strict and change churches to one that is more liberal. Oh Man I'm sounding like Ken now .

Many churches teach them to not trust what they read because they cannot interpret it correctly anyway.

The root of it all is that we can only know ourselves and we teach what we know. We were once saved and we will always be saved. That is great for me. But I fear that I have taught some in the past this doctrine that do not have the loving devotion that I have. They did not fully understand what they were doing and I could have given them a false hope. I can only pray that God corrects my mistakes.

It is not a magical prayer that gets anyone saved or keeps them saved. We should never teach in a large group to just ask Jesus into your heart and you'll always be okay. Many do not know what this means at all but they will believe you because you are a preacher and preachers can't lie.

We think we can skip some steps and get folks saved but they must first know that they are sinners and on the way to hell. They must want to turn from that lifestyle and seek God while He can be found. We need to be teching this! Then we will be more certain that the ones we have lead to the Lord are "truly" His. We will see the proof in their lives.

[ProjectPeter]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (I John 2:19)

Someone that can turn away and stop believing was never truly saved to begin with.

That certainly describes some... no doubt of that. But you are discounting other verses that describe others totally different. You still have to contend with that very fact... you ain't contending with it. That passage in 1 John isn't the only one in the Bible.

[ProjectPeter]

Ken, I wanted to help you understand that question but it won't multiquote enough messages to build up to it . I went back 8 pages to build up to that question . It was about faith not needing evidence because it is evidence of what is unseen. If we know by faith (this is our evidence) that we are saved then how could we not be saved?

If we are saved now then we have eternal life now. (I added that part )

Well no. You have it by faith... but not by actuality. You don't have it actually until you have endured to the end. If that isn't exactly what Paul is speaking of in Romans 8 then please do feel free to show me my error.

[Buck shot]

Well no. You have it by faith... but not by actuality. You don't have it actually until you have endured to the end. If that isn't exactly what Paul is speaking of in Romans 8 then please do feel free to show me my error.

I have tried but it seems I cannot communicate well enough. To me, faith is actual. How can something that is not actual move moutains or heal the sick?
Jesus said I will never die so where is my end that I have to endure to?

The truth is by faith I will not only endure in this world but also in the next. I know that probably don't make sense either.


John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Friend of Jesus]

Just because someone breaks their promise with God and walks away
God doesn't go back on his promise to you -he keeps his word

[jshears]

The majority of people seem to not look in God's Word or examine themselves. They just go by what they are told. My 17 year old son preached a message last night from Proverbs on Christian living. If we could all grasp what that kid taught none of us would have a problem. The thing is, on Sunday mornings the focus is on salvation in most churches. Christian living is on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights when we are preaching to the choir.

We do not seem to want to teach what should be done until after they are saved (we think).

I agree with everything you said. OSAS does not equal "live however you want" --It doesn't give us a 'license to live in sin'. Paul said "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid" (paraphrase) Then he said how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein. (Romans 6) Salvation is supposed to make a change in the heart and life of a person. If it doesn't it isn't real. We ought not provide a false security for people by our teaching. I'm saved and secure in Christ --I've been set free to live for my Savior, but not to live in sin. And if I do sin, there are consequences.

[Friend of Jesus]

Yes there are consequences- when I sin I am drawn away from God and that is the biggest consequence of them all

Thank God for the Cross- we are saved

[2 Peter 2:20]

Yes there are consequences- when I sin I am drawn away from God and that is the biggest consequence of them all

Thank God for the Cross- we are saved

So what does drawn away from God mean to you?

[losthorizon]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (I John 2:19)

Someone that can turn away and stop believing was never truly saved to begin with.

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)

[losthorizon]

Just because someone breaks their promise with God and walks away
God doesn't go back on his promise to you -he keeps his word

And God's word that He keeps...

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

[9Marksfan]

Recently, they discuss on Rev. 22:18-19 on book of life.

When, Moses was with Joshua at Mt. Sinai, Moses was communicate with God, while God wrote the Ten Commandmentsd and made two tables. Joshua heard something noise down at camping, Joshua came to Moses, and told him that, he heard noise down there. Then, Moses walked down toward camp, with two tables of Ten Commandments, he saw people worshipping the golden calf as idolatry, then he casts two tables upon mount and broken. He was so angry with people for rebel against God. Then, Moses return to God for making prayer and atonement. Moses said to God, "Oh, this peoplke have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou will forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written."

Then, God said to Moses, "Whosoever hath sinned against me, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK." - Exodus 32:31-33.

Clear, Moses was talking about the book of life

Why "clearly"? There are several books in Scripture - indeed even in Revelation "bookS" are opened. Actually, if you take the Ex 32 passage literally, we're all hosed - toast - because all of us sin post-conversion - no exceptions!

- Rev. 20:14-15; 22:19. He knew that salvation is conditional.

Who knew - God or Moses?

God told Moses, if anyone have sinned against Him, He shall removed person's name FROM the book of life and cast away in the lake of fire.

Well, as I said, there's no hope for anyone, if that's the Book of Life!

Even, Jesus said to John, the Beloved in Revelation 2:11- "He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

And who, according to John, are those who overcome? (clue - 1 Jn 5:4-5)

This is a promise from Jesus, if anyone overcoming the world at death, person's name shall not be removed from the book of life.

Well at least we're agreed on that.

OR, otherwise, Christ warns us, what IF a person fails to overcome at death, shall suffer the second death, and removed from the book of life.

They'll suffer the seonc death, sure - but those who are condemned are condemned because their names are NOT in the Book of Life - not that they have been removed - they were never there in the first place!

Clear, this is conditional.

That's the same as saying we are saved by our own efforts = works = another gospel - where's grace in that?

Notice first part of Rev. 2:11 says, "He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR." This is speak of warning, every person ought to know.

Amen!

Same with Rev. 13:9 says, "If any man have an ear, LET HIM HEAR."

Ditto.

Follow verse 10-18 warning us, that many Christians shall be wear out by Satan and his army( or Police or soldiers), by persecute against them. Also, Satan shall cause every person of the world to worship him, and receive the mark in their foreheads or right hands in the image of Satan - 666. Even, in Rev. 14:9-12 telling us, God warns us, if anyone worship the beast, receive the mark, shall cast into the fire in the presence of Christ and his angels at second coming, also, all saints(true Christians) who have endure with it and KEEP the commandments. Clear, these are conditional with warnings.

You're forgetting v8 - those whose names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the foundation of the world will not worship the beast!

Also, in Rev. 3:5 says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment: and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Christ tells us of his promise, if any person overcomes the world at death, Christ shall not removed or erase person's name away from the book of life.

Amen!

Word, 'overcoming' means battling against. Right now, we are in spiritual warfare. We are battle against flesh, world, and Satan. Our battle will not be done till at our death or Lord comes. If we quit battle in the midst of our life, by the time, we die, we shall not be victory,

Agreed up to this point.

and our names would be removed from the book of life. That is very clear warning from Jesus Christ. Better take heed as what Christ saying.

We all need to overcome, for sure - but endurance is the evidence of true faith - not the means of securing Heaven - like I said, where is salvation by grace, there? Is Jesus our Saviour on a daily basis or is it really all down to us? Is He committed to saving us to the uttermost or is He not?

Throughout in book of Revelation, you will see lot of conditional with warnings. You cannot find a single verse anywhere in Revelation saying there is unconditional salvation.

Yep - all reference to those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life - Jesus Himself said that THAT should be the basis for our rejoicing (Lk 10:20).

Throughout in Revelation telling us that, we must endure throughout our life till death, then be victory and our names would be remain in the book of life, and inherit eternal life with Christ in New Jerusalem, and on new earth at His coming.

Amen - that's the other side of the coin!

We better listen what God's Word saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Amen - and He is saying that those who overcome (true believers) will not have thier names blotted out of the Book of Life - that's a wonderful promise - not a warning!

[9Marksfan]

John 8:51 tells us, Christ told them very seriously, if anyone KEEP His commandments, will not face everlasting punishment in hell. Or, otherwise, if we do not keep his commandments, then we shall suffer everlasting punishment separated from God.

Clearly, this is a conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

And who are those who keep His word, save true believers, His sheep? Did you read all the verses I gave Buck shot? Notice how many UNCONDITIONAL verses about everlasting life come from John's gospel?