Once saved always saved....

[9Marksfan]

3) Christ's propitiation was sufficient to save ANYONE that accepts Christ as Lord by believing in their heart and confessing with their mouth and it is done by grace through faith. However, not ALL will accept this. In other words...ALL CAN be saved but NOT ALL WILL be saved.

Ok, answer me this - were everyone's sins ACTUALLY paid for in full? If so, how can God ask for payment again once those who don't believe have died? If it's because they remained in unbelief, was that unbelief sin? If so, was it paid for? If so, why is payment for it required? If not, does believing atone for it?

[9Marksfan]

Um... no they are not unconditional. That is just something man has made up somewhere. It is required that we endure to the end and even POTS folk understand that. It is required that we believe and yes... even POTS folk believe that. It is even required that we are obedient to Christ.... etc. So there is nothing at all "unconditional" about this.

These things aren't conditions - they are the means by which we receive salvation and persevere in grace - there's a subtle difference that one day I hope you'll see and think.......

[9Marksfan]

Now, how do you know that I am not certain now?

Because, by your own admission, you don't believe you HAVE eternal life HERE AND NOW.

It is certain as long as I heed the warnings of Paul, Peter, John, etc. to continue in the faith, make my calling and election sure, endure to the end and continue to work out my own salvation. IF I do these things I will be receive eternal life.

Wow - and you think THAT'S assurance?!?! And that eternal life is a reward for all that?

That is His promise to Christians but He also has a promise of condemnation for those who do not do these things. This is to Christians as well for the ungodly and the sinner already stands condemned.

1 Peter 4:17-18
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

Depends how you define "judgement" and "family of God".

[Partaker of Christ]

But if we take the non-biblical concept of once saved always saved to its logical conclusion it really does not matter what sins a Christian commits (adultery, murder, alcoholism, etc) – those sins cannot and do not separate the Christian from God. But this concept is in direct contradiction to the word of God…Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers...

And there are also many other religions, that do none of those things, but they also do not believe or trust in Christ. Are they then from a 'non-biblical concept' saved?

What of the person, who gives all of his wealth to the poor, and has not love.

What of the person, who understands all mysteries, and has all knowledge, but has not love.

What of the person, who gives his body to be burned, but has not love.

What of the person, who though he has ALL FAITH, so that he can move mountains, but has not love.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

And 'IF' you have love, the outworking manifestation will be:

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


You can command someone to love, but you don't have to command love to do.

He who loves much, has been forgiven much.
We need to see God's Holiness, to see that we have been forgiven much.

[2 Peter 2:20]

Huh?
Then we might say that Christainity could be false.

The difference is that OSAS put their full trust in Christ. NOSAS put their trust in Christ and their own self enduring.

Jesus said He will loose none, that the Father give Him.
Do you say He was false?

Neither one of us would be having this discussion if we thought Christianity was false. So we can rule that out right now.

So will full trust in Christ keep you from being able to sin? It should if that was the only determining factor.

Your discription of NOSAS is almost correct. I would add that our enduring is enabled by the Spirit but we can quench and grieve the Spirit by going against it.

[9Marksfan]

I am almost POTS

The seed is good, but the problem is the ground.
For me the seed will only take root, to the depth of the ground ploughed. We cannot really know the depth of God's Love for us, until we really know His Holiness, and His absolute hatred of all and any sin.

If the seed has taken root, it will endure.

When Peter preached at Pentecost, they were pierced in their heart.

What is your difficulty with POTS? DOn't you believe that the good soil represents the regenerated heart, the one that is the "heart of flesh" - noble and good because God has renewed it?

[9Marksfan]

So I guess we need to make another category...

POTS
OSAS
NOSAS
NYOSASBOD...Not yet once saved always saved but one day

I like the order! It's in order of how biblical each doctrine is!

[Partaker of Christ]

Can't they?

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. - Heb 6:4-6

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. - John 15:6

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: - Heb 12:25

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; - 1 Tim 4:1

That is, some shall depart from 'the' faith, not their faith.

Again, departing from and denying their belief, is not to become an un-believer.

[2 Peter 2:20]

Ok, answer me this - were everyone's sins ACTUALLY paid for in full? If so, how can God ask for payment again once those who don't believe have died? If it's because they remained in unbelief, was that unbelief sin? If so, was it paid for? If so, why is payment for it required? If not, does believing atone for it?

Yes, they were paid for on the cross...the sins of the whole world. Those who don't believe already stand condemned they are dead even though they are alive and until they believe they are dead. Christ said let the dead bury the dead.

I'm not convinced that unbelief is a sin. Does the Bible say that unbelief is a sin?

570ἀπιστία, ὀλιγοπιστία [apistia /ap·is·tee·ah/] 12 occurrences; AV translates as “unbelief” 12 times. 1 unfaithfulness, faithless. 2 want of faith, unbelief. 3 weakness of faith.

[9Marksfan]

Yes, they were paid for on the cross...the sins of the whole world. Those who don't believe already stand condemned they are dead even though they are alive and until they believe they are dead. Christ said let the dead bury the dead.

I'm not convinced that unbelief is a sin. Does the Bible say that unbelief is a sin?

570ἀπιστία, ὀλιγοπιστία [apistia /ap·is·tee·ah/] 12 occurrences; AV translates as “unbelief” 12 times. 1 unfaithfulness, faithless. 2 want of faith, unbelief. 3 weakness of faith.

I REALLY can't believe you're saying that - I would actually say it's the greatest sin - the unpardonable sin.....

[ProjectPeter]

Thanks for the answer.


I do not look at the prodical son parable the same as you. We know he was dead to his dad but I understand him to still be a son. i do understand why you see it your way though. i tend to lean more to the fruit tree that continues to not bare good fruit even after the Master Gardener has worked around it. Folks cannot be both good and bad trees. We are either one or the other. Like sheep and goats, we cannot be both. I know you agree with this too.

I cannot agree that we could ever be born again a third time. You say that is not what you are saying but that is what you are saying if you lose your salvation then you are in a worse place than you were before. So how can you just repent and be back where you were?

So the ball ends up in God's court where it should be. We cannot say someone has lost their salvation. Only God knows.

Thing is... even that tree... should it not produce next crop season... was going to get chopped down because it was useless for anything good. So I suppose we do see things differently. While the good news was the master was patient and willing to wait a bit longer... the bad news was if that tree didn't bare good fruit... that patience had a limit.

[ProjectPeter]

These things aren't conditions - they are the means by which we receive salvation and persevere in grace - there's a subtle difference that one day I hope you'll see and think.......

Uh... that sounds an awful lot like trying to just word it differently so as to not call it a condition when in fact... even the way you describe it... it is a condition.

[Partaker of Christ]

Okay ya'll STOP SINNING!

Now tell some of the NOSAS'ers to start loving, because:
1Co 13:8 Love never fails!!

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails.

And that:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

If we love Him, it will work out that we will always love Him, or this verse fails.

[ProjectPeter]

Now tell some of the NOSAS'ers to start loving, because:
1Co 13:8 Love never fails!!

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind; love does not envy; love does not boast, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave disgracefully, does not seek its own, is not provoked to anger, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails.

And that:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

If we love Him, it will work out that we will always love Him, or this verse fails.

Ah... NOSAS folk don't love, show love or accept love! I feel my emoticon thingy coming on again.

[Partaker of Christ]

It wasn't a cheap shot at all. It was a very good example of that very thing. You said they can believe and still deny Christ. That is greasy grace at it's finest and it totally defies Scripture.

It was (and still is) either a cheap shot, or you misunderstood.

The point being made was, can a person who has truly believed, end up in unbelief? Does someone 'stop' believing?
It could happen if that belief was through merely intellect or emmotion.

He might deny that belief, but he would still believe.

I have not for one minute inferred that it is ok to deny, you put that in.