"For the letter killeth, but the spirit gives life", 2 corinthians 3:6

[thethinker]

How do you know *His* "appointed times" for worship if you don't know the letter? todd

Sorry todd. I'm not following you. If you are saying that there are "appointed times" for worship I would question that. We should glorify God "whether we eat or drink or whatever we do" (Paul).

What are these "appointed times" of worship you speak of?

[diffangle]

What are these "appointed times" of worship you speak of?

One example is one that I've mentioned to you before... The Feast of Tabernacle which is a shadow of Yahushuas second coming.

[Studyin'2Show]

The law was indeed a "tutor" to bring us to Christ. I have said that before. But we can't be justified through keeping it because we are all sinners. Neither should we obey the letter of it. Paul said that we were "delivered' from the law so that we may serve in the newness of the SPIRIT, not in the oldness of the letter". For the letter "killeth".
You confuse me. We agree that antinomianism is a false conclusion. And we agree that we should serve the law in the newness of the spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Yet you keep on with your objections. Have you had a negative experience with antinomians?

The book of Jude says that there will be those who change the grace of our Lord into lasciviousness. Should we stop preaching grace because there are those who abuse it? I am not going to subject myself to the letter of the law just because there are sinners that abuse freedom.

And sons are mature adults who don't need the letter.

Show me exactly when I, or anyone in this thread, has said that we are seeking justification by the Law? It hasn't happened. Yet those who have a problem with those of us who do not see God's Law as some big, bad burden always seem to assume that we are seeking justification through our own righteous acts. God forbid! I am justified by the blood of Messiah alone! I believe that if you let go of your preconceived idea that I am seeking self-justification, you will at least understand my position better.

I had never heard of 'antinomianism' or 'antinomians' before this thread so be assured, I don't have any issues with that.

No one has asked anyone to stop preaching grace. Goodness no! Why would I want you to stop preaching grace? I preach grace! For it is BY grace that we are saved, through faith; not of ourselves for it is the gift of God!

Yes, sons ARE mature adults; WHO HAVE LEARNED! You see, my mother was my handwriting tutor. I learned proper penmanship from her. Now, that I am an adult do I then forget all the good things she taught me because I don't HAVE TO have good penmanship? Absolutely not! Now, it is my desire to continue to use the penmanship I learned from my tutor. You see, the Law was our tutor. By it we learned what is good and what is bad. Now that we are no longer UNDER the Law, does that mean we then forget everything we have learned? Not me; not at all. I hope this clarifies things somewhat for you.

God Bless!

[valleybldr]

Sorry todd. I'm not following you. If you are saying that there are "appointed times" for worship I would question that. We should glorify God "whether we eat or drink or whatever we do" (Paul).

What are these "appointed times" of worship you speak of?

The "Holy Days" God laid out for us. Yes, we need to glorify and worship 24/7 but there are special days that celebrate the redemptive work of our Savior. The Corinthian church kept one, evidently not too well , that is coming up soon. todd

[valleybldr]

One example is one that I've mentioned to you before... The Feast of Tabernacle which is a shadow of Yahushuas second coming.

In part. More specifically Trumpets and/or Atonement point to His return. Succot/Tabernacles points to the 1,000 years He will Tabernacle with us and all nations on earth (70 sacrifices=70 nations). Here is a cool chart I've added to my collection http://www.ltradio.org/charts/Feasts...st%20cycle.jpg. I believe the "Eighth day of Assembly" represents the 'New Heavens and the New Earth" but it has become the forgotten Holy Day within the Body (it's not even on this chart because they consider "Firstfruits" a Holy Day which it is not). todd

[thethinker]

Show me exactly when I, or anyone in this thread, has said that we are seeking justification by the Law?

I don't think you are saying that we should be justified by the letter of the law. But you seem to be saying that we should live according to the letter even AFTER you have said that you live according to the spirit. So if we both agree that we are not justified by the letter and that we should serve in the newness of the spirit, then what are your objections all about?

Yes, sons ARE mature adults; WHO HAVE LEARNED! You see, the Law was our tutor.

Yes. The letter of the law WAS our tutor. But not now. The Spirit of grace is our tutor now, not the letter of the law.

[valleybldr]

Yes. The letter of the law WAS our tutor. But not now. The Spirit of grace is our tutor now, not the letter of the law.

How soon do you think the believers present at the first Pentecost chucked that Holy Day in the "obsolete" waste bin? It has been fulfilled, at one additional level, but like Passover it became a memorial of more then one event in God's redemptive plan for mankind. These Holy days continue even through the 1,000 year reign of our Messiah and like millions of Jews the world over we don't need a Temple to keep "the appointed times" (by the letter or by the spirit within us). todd

[thethinker]

The "Holy Days" God laid out for us. Yes, we need to glorify and worship 24/7 but there are special days that celebrate the redemptive work of our Savior. The Corinthian church kept one, evidently not too well , that is coming up soon. todd

Where is this found in the Corinthian epistles?

[valleybldr]

Where is this found in the Corinthian epistles?

Passover is mentioned in the first epistle chapters 5 and 11. todd

[Studyin'2Show]

I don't think you are saying that we should be justified by the letter of the law. But you seem to be saying that we should live according to the letter even AFTER you have said that you live according to the spirit. So if we both agree that we are not justified by the letter and that we should serve in the newness of the spirit, then what are your objections all about?

Yes. The letter of the law WAS our tutor. But not now. The Spirit of grace is our tutor now, not the letter of the law.

I've said before, the trouble I have is with you saying God's Law was nailed to the cross as I explained in post #88 But I'm perfectly fine agreeing to disagree!

God Bless!

[Jesusinmyheart]

The law was indeed a "tutor" to bring us to Christ. I have said that before. But we can't be justified through keeping it because we are all sinners. Neither should we obey the letter of it. Paul said that we were "delivered' from the law so that we may serve in the newness of the SPIRIT, not in the oldness of the letter". For the letter "killeth".

Correct, since we are sinners no keeping of the Law will save us, because if we fall short in one we have transgressed all. The point is not that we therefore shouldn't keep the law, but that we are sinners because no matter how hard we try due to our flesh we will err even in the smallest thing.

My friend, where your misunderstanding of those of us that "practice the Law" comes in is, that you feel we're going just by a set of rules, just because.
But the fact is, it's God who has written the Law into our hearts, and we therefore look to the Word to see exactly what God wants of us, and then when we have began to understand we follow the Law by what we know as truth in the Spirit and live it out in the flesh.
We are no different from you as far as living and walking by the Spirit goes, however, we have taken the liberty to take the law as our guidebook, as the Word (Yeshua) leaves no doubt as to what God wants us to do. It does not put us in bondage, but sets us free because we know exactly what to do, and we don't have to wonder if we may err in any way.

It's like the Spirit has revealed to us the truth and the application of the Law, and then, because it is known to us in the Spirit we strive to walk out the visible effect of that knowledge and understanding, which is the fruit of our labors of our love for God.

I don't think you are saying that we should be justified by the letter of the law. But you seem to be saying that we should live according to the letter even AFTER you have said that you live according to the spirit. So if we both agree that we are not justified by the letter and that we should serve in the newness of the spirit, then what are your objections all about?

Our objections are that too many folks claim to be living by the Spirit not even having a clue about what God wants them to do in any given situation. The wait for some voice to whisper into their ears or go by a figment of imagination and call that revelation living/walking after the Spirit.
The scriptures leave no room to err. Granted there are situations the bible seems to be silent on, but there are very many detailed instructions, and if all else fails wisdom wise, Love will never fail. However, if you don't have the scriptures in your heart/any understanding what God is trying to say, all attempts to walk after the Spirit are futile.

This is what it means not to lean upon your OWN understanding.

Hope this clarifies it some for you of why and how we do what we do.


Shalom,
Tanja

[thethinker]

Indeed the spirit is more glorious than the letter. What it does not do, however, is toss away the baby.

God Bless!

S2S,
It just came to me today that the "baby" represents the spirit of the law while the letter of the law represents the "bathwater".

You're right. Paul kept the "baby" but threw out the letter.

[Jesusinmyheart]

As for the actual scripture you're using to negate the Law:

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Co 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

My view on this differs from yours in that the context of the scriptures needs to be considered in detail.

Note that: our sufficiency is from God.. how does it come to us from God? I say through the Word, which is Yeshua. He gave us many instructions, and IMO the OT instruictions have never been negated, but rather misapplied or misunderstood, and even distorted by some Pharisees. The Word written into our hearts explained bz the Spirit in depth leads us to a deeper understanding than the Letter of the law appears to be at first glance.

In this wise Yeshua explained the many "you have heard it said, but i say unto you......"

Take the Law, "you shall not steal" The Spirit has explained several applications of that Law to me that run deeper than some would consider. For example by the Spirit i know that to accept something from someone that i don't need amounts to stealing, because it takes the gift of God from the person who really dopes need it.

This is the Spirit of the Law, and this is why the letter kills when you just live by it to the "T" because you will only operate on surface level.

Without dwelling on the Law and meditating on it day and night as King David did, and without the Spirit's help, you will never be able to live a righteous life. The Spirit reveals to you things in time, not all at once from my own personal experience, it's a walk through life towards God, growing to maturity.

Hope that explains why i don't view doing the letter of the law as bad because i can take it from step one down to step X with the Spirit's help, and that is what makes me righteous.
Contradict this with what some Pharisees did back in Yeshuas day, who lived only to appear holy and acted out the letter, and you can see why Yeshua called them hypocrites.
This does not mean the Law is bad, and this is why Yeshua commanded:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but [do] not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

I hope this clarifies my position as well as that of other likeminded sisters and brothers.

Shalom,
Tanja

[Studyin'2Show]

S2S,
It just came to me today that the "baby" represents the spirit of the law while the letter of the law represents the "bathwater".
You're right. Paul kept the "baby" but threw out the letter.

It really is not about making up analogies that fit our theology. My point was simply that the Law of God is good; perfect even, so there is no need to be rid of it. The way His people were (and are) observing it was bad. They looked at Yeshua and thought He was doing it wrong when in reality He was walking it out in perfection. I evidently believe the 'letter' and the 'spirit' represent different things than you do. What has come from the mouth of God is NEVER bad in my opinion, so there's no reason to throw any of His commands out.

God Bless!

[Jesusinmyheart]

S2S,
It just came to me today that the "baby" represents the spirit of the law while the letter of the law represents the "bathwater".

You're right. Paul kept the "baby" but threw out the letter.

I strongly disagree with your analogy.

IMO Paul never threw out the letter/bathwater either.... what he was doing away with was the hypocrisy of some that thought one had to follow the letter of the Law to be entering the covenant. Being physically circumcised amounts to nothing if your heart is not in it and you are doing it for the wrong reasons. This could be compared to people responding to the altar call and saying their sinners prayer, thinking "ok, now I'm saved", without a true remorse and willingness to repent and turn to God to change their lives.

God enables us through His Word to know right from wrong. How many are willing to look?

The NT is built upon the OT, and God would never throw out the foundation of the Word which is Yeshua and therefore includes the Law which was how the Word operated in the OT.
Mercy and Grace did exist back then too....

There's an article i would encourage you to read about this, but i have trouble finding it right now, and no time for an extensive search.

I'll be back.

Shalom,
Tanja