question

[Bthings]

Well, BThings, if that is the case, then maybe you're right. Christianity is about sinners getting justified. God has given Himself the title of, "He who justifies the ungodly". If you're good, then your own goodness will justify you in the day of judgement.

Well it depends on the definition of "good". As a human, and to my own standards I am good. But according to God's standards I'm not good.

Why is God's standards all that matter? According to my standards God isn't good.

But you, maybe you don't need Jesus then.

Well I do need Jesus if I want to avoid hell. I just don't want Him, but I'm going to have to have Him if I don't want to be in hell.

I am not saved because I am good, but because I know that I am nothing without Christ.

What do you mean 'nothing'? Without Jesus, you'd still be a human who tries to do good, right?

I don't have any goodness to rely on, and if it wasn't for Jesus, God would be perfectly fair to throw me in hell with the worst, because that is where I belong.

Why do you think so? You know you couldn't stop sinning no matter how hard you tried. If sinning's not something you can stop doing it doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

[chisel]

Well it depends on the definition of "good". As a human, and to my own standards I am good. But according to God's standards I'm not good.

Why is God's standards all that matter? According to my standards God isn't good.

God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Yes, in our own minds we certainly are very important, but that's just how we are, but yet time puts even the greatest people in their place. Do you fear Alexander the Great? He had conquered so much that he fell into a deep depression when there was nothing left to conquer. Do you think about Alexander the Great much these days? You don't, he's just some historical guy, right? But in his mind, he was very important.

That's how we are, but after all the stars, all the geniusses and the conquerors and the successful and the famous and the great people of our time have passed away, God will still be there. Christ had conquered death. You reckon his opinion is not as important as yours?

Well I do need Jesus if I want to avoid hell. I just don't want Him, but I'm going to have to have Him if I don't want to be in hell.

Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

See, you can set fire to a field and all the snakes in that field will run away from the fire, but even though they've excaped the fire, they are still snakes. That's what John the Baptist meant when he called the pharisees a bunch of snakes, you know.
They heard the Messiah was coming so they quickly ran to get baptised so they get their ticket into heaven. But their hearts were as wicked as always.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
(Mat 3:7-8)

What do you mean 'nothing'? Without Jesus, you'd still be a human who tries to do good, right?

The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.

Why do you think so? You know you couldn't stop sinning no matter how hard you tried. If sinning's not something you can stop doing it doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

Ya think?

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekeil 11:19-20)

Even heard of Stephen Moran? He was a serial murderer/rapist. Got saved, and became a new person in Christ. His nature was completely changed, and that's exactly what Christ offers.
Try and get hold of the movie 'Faith like potatoes'. It's about a guy called Angus Buchan, a real monster of a person. Got saved, and his life changed. He is now running 'Shalom ministries' feeding and clothing the poor, and preaching the Gospel.

Same things happened to the guys in the Bible. Read the letters in the Bible that John wrote. First thing that'll come to your mind is, "What a loving caring and wise person". Do you know what Jesus' nickname for him and his brother was before they got saved? He called them 'Sons of thunder', because they were wild and rough and pretty mean too. Wanted Jesus to summon fire and kill a whole bunch of people. Same guy whom Jesus later called, "John the beloved"

Then look at Paul. Probably one of the most rabid persecutors of Christians ever. He completely changed and became..well Paul.

Oh don't think that God hasn't got the power to change a person. What would the point of forgiveness be, if you were still just as evil as before.
As Spurgeon put it: What good would it serve if a great ruler forgave the rebels rioting in the streets but then let them continue to riot?
It would make a mockery of mercy if that was the case, don't you think? In fact, it'll incite even worse things. If you have alot of debt and somebody feels in their heart that they want to clear your debt, but don't help you to stop making debt. That'll just be an incentive to spend even more.

God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

[redeemedbyhim]

God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Yes, in our own minds we certainly are very important, but that's just how we are, but yet time puts even the greatest people in their place. Do you fear Alexander the Great? He had conquered so much that he fell into a deep depression when there was nothing left to conquer. Do you think about Alexander the Great much these days? You don't, he's just some historical guy, right? But in his mind, he was very important.

That's how we are, but after all the stars, all the geniusses and the conquerors and the successful and the famous and the great people of our time have passed away, God will still be there. Christ had conquered death. You reckon his opinion is not as important as yours?


Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

See, you can set fire to a field and all the snakes in that field will run away from the fire, but even though they've excaped the fire, they are still snakes. That's what John the Baptist meant when he called the pharisees a bunch of snakes, you know.
They heard the Messiah was coming so they quickly ran to get baptised so they get their ticket into heaven. But their hearts were as wicked as always.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
(Mat 3:7-8)


The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.


Ya think?

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekeil 11:19-20)

Even heard of Stephen Moran? He was a serial murderer/rapist. Got saved, and became a new person in Christ. His nature was completely changed, and that's exactly what Christ offers.
Try and get hold of the movie 'Faith like potatoes'. It's about a guy called Angus Buchan, a real monster of a person. Got saved, and his life changed. He is now running 'Shalom ministries' feeding and clothing the poor, and preaching the Gospel.

Same things happened to the guys in the Bible. Read the letters in the Bible that John wrote. First thing that'll come to your mind is, "What a loving caring and wise person". Do you know what Jesus' nickname for him and his brother was before they got saved? He called them 'Sons of thunder', because they were wild and rough and pretty mean too. Wanted Jesus to summon fire and kill a whole bunch of people. Same guy whom Jesus later called, "John the beloved"

Then look at Paul. Probably one of the most rabid persecutors of Christians ever. He completely changed and became..well Paul.

Oh don't think that God hasn't got the power to change a person. What would the point of forgiveness be, if you were still just as evil as before.
As Spurgeon put it: What good would it serve if a great ruler forgave the rebels rioting in the streets but then let them continue to riot?
It would make a mockery of mercy if that was the case, don't you think? In fact, it'll incite even worse things. If you have alot of debt and somebody feels in their heart that they want to clear your debt, but don't help you to stop making debt. That'll just be an incentive to spend even more.

God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

Wow! That was powerful, Vim.
A better case couldn't be made. I'm sure Bthings has much to digest and others who are searching with such an honest heart, (allbetit, a little disturbing from a Christian perspective) and will have to decide one way or the other. Like each of us had to, but you've given such a powerful answer that I don't know how they could choose anything other than Christ.
Thanks!

[Bthings]

God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.

Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

True, if I go to heaven I don't want God to be there. But I don't really care about going to heaven, I just don't want to go to hell. BUT if I could have it totally my way, I would choose to have never been born.

The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.

So is it impossible to not be totally selfish without God?

God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

Why couldn't we have been created with a Godly nature all along?

[Athanasius]

Okay, so now I'm wondering something similar but different.

Why do we have a nature to want to disobey God? Why can't we have a nature to want to obey God? (we still could disobey God, but it would be much much more rare to disobey)

Well I do want to obey God, but for some reason I find myself doing things contrary to what God wants me to do. This is what sin is.

I still don't understand why He can't. But i don't think I'm gonna understand, lol, so i better just leave it at this.

Well it's like the examples I used before. God can't create a four sided triangle, a square circle, a married bachelor, cold fire, etc. Now linguistically those words don't make sense, but you get the idea. These are abstract examples of things God can't do. God also can't lie or sin or be 'unbecome' God. God can't create something as powerful as Himself or else He wouldn't be God.

[Athanasius]

Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.

You cannot display the emotion, choice and action known as love by yourself. You need at least two people to do so. With God we have the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Between those three, the Triune nature of God, we see love displayed. Otherwise, God is simply amoral and you wouldn't be the wiser as to whether or not God was love, hate, jealous, etc.

[chisel]

Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.

Ever try telling God how you feel? Seriously, get on your bike, motorbike or car, or put on your most comfortable shoes, walk to a quiet place and take it up with Him. Shake your fist at the sky and call Him down, and tell Him exactly how bad He is...and if your convictions are this strong, you'll wait there for as long as it takes, right?

You do that, BThings. Take it up with God, because you're clearly not getting anywhere with us. Skip the servants, the house-keepers and the butlers and go straight to the LORD, and tell Him how bad He is. Deal?

True, if I go to heaven I don't want God to be there. But I don't really care about going to heaven, I just don't want to go to hell. BUT if I could have it totally my way, I would choose to have never been born.

Be sure to tell God this as well. Tell Him that you feel He doesn't belong in Heaven (although He created it). Tell Him, that you'd rather cease to exist than acknowledge Him, and tell Him why you feel that way.

So is it impossible to not be totally selfish without God?

Without God, nobody would exist to be selfish. The Bible says God makes His sun shine on the believer and the unbeliever. If you hate God, you do so by the power of God. If you serve only yourself you do so by the power of God. If you shake your fist at the sky, you can do so because God gave you that hand and those fingers, that you can curl up into a fist and shake it at Him.

Why couldn't we have been created with a Godly nature all along?

Adam and Eve were created with a Godly nature, and still they rebelled against Him, because they wanted to be greater. They wanted to be like God. That is how lucifer tempted Eve, by offering power. He offered Jesus power as well when He tempted Him in the desert.
Lucifer himself was created as an angel of light, but because of the glory that God bestowed on him, he became proud. He thought Himself greater than God and said to Himself, "I shall ascend to the throne of God...".

If you were in Adam and Eve's position you would have done exactly the same as they did. You blame God for your sins, and so did they. Adam said to God, "It's your fault because YOU gave me this woman, who gave me the fruit." and Eve also blamed God saying, "It was the serpent who beguiled me. It's YOUR fault, God, because YOU let the serpent live."

Exactly the same argument that you've been using, not true?

So, take it up with God. Tell Him exactly what a poor job He's been doing. Let us know how it went, and if nothing happens, go back the next day. Even if it takes a year, you make sure that you get your audience with the King of Kings. Put your weight behind your feelings and don't give up until you meet with God.

Cheers

Vim.

[Bthings]

Well I do want to obey God, but for some reason I find myself doing things contrary to what God wants me to do. This is what sin is.

so sin forces you to disobey God. I thought disobeying God is sin, that they are the same thing.

You cannot display the emotion, choice and action known as love by yourself. You need at least two people to do so. With God we have the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Between those three, the Triune nature of God, we see love displayed. Otherwise, God is simply amoral and you wouldn't be the wiser as to whether or not God was love, hate, jealous, etc.

sorry, I don't really understand what you said here. lol, please Could you elaborate?

[Bthings]

Ever try telling God how you feel? Seriously, get on your bike, motorbike or car, or put on your most comfortable shoes, walk to a quiet place and take it up with Him. Shake your fist at the sky and call Him down, and tell Him exactly how bad He is...and if your convictions are this strong, you'll wait there for as long as it takes, right?

You do that, BThings. Take it up with God, because you're clearly not getting anywhere with us. Skip the servants, the house-keepers and the butlers and go straight to the LORD, and tell Him how bad He is. Deal?


Be sure to tell God this as well. Tell Him that you feel He doesn't belong in Heaven (although He created it). Tell Him, that you'd rather cease to exist than acknowledge Him, and tell Him why you feel that way.



So, take it up with God. Tell Him exactly what a poor job He's been doing. Let us know how it went, and if nothing happens, go back the next day. Even if it takes a year, you make sure that you get your audience with the King of Kings. Put your weight behind your feelings and don't give up until you meet with God.

Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that. But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.
But I really don't want to go to hell.

Seriously, what do you think I should do?

Adam and Eve were created with a Godly nature, and still they rebelled against Him, because they wanted to be greater.

So then after you get "born again" into a Godly nature, why won't you just go back to the way you were before? I mean Adam and Eve had a Godly nature, and they changed.

They wanted to be like God. That is how lucifer tempted Eve, by offering power. He offered Jesus power as well when He tempted Him in the desert.
Lucifer himself was created as an angel of light, but because of the glory that God bestowed on him, he became proud. He thought Himself greater than God and said to Himself, "I shall ascend to the throne of God...".

If you were in Adam and Eve's position you would have done exactly the same as they did. You blame God for your sins, and so did they. Adam said to God, "It's your fault because YOU gave me this woman, who gave me the fruit." and Eve also blamed God saying, "It was the serpent who beguiled me. It's YOUR fault, God, because YOU let the serpent live."

Exactly the same argument that you've been using, not true?

I suppose that is true.

But, How can I not blame God? I just don't see things as not His fault, that's why I come here, I need to see it differently, but in a way where it still makes sense to me.

[Athanasius]

so sin forces you to disobey God. I thought disobeying God is sin, that they are the same thing.

No, sin doesn't force me to disobey God. I disobey God as a result of my sinful (disobedient), fallen nature, even though I desire not to.

sorry, I don't really understand what you said here. lol, please Could you elaborate?

It answers your concerns as to God's goodness.

[Bthings]

No, sin doesn't force me to disobey God. I disobey God as a result of my sinful (disobedient), fallen nature, even though I desire not to.

How'd you get that fallen nature?

It answers your concerns as to God's goodness.

yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

[Athanasius]

How'd you get that fallen nature?

yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

1) How did everyone 'get that fallen nature'? Genesis 3.
2) You could always start by reading the Gospels. Take a good, honest, read of the Gospels.

[redeemedbyhim]

Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

First of all, He all ready knows exactly how you feel, He all ready knows you've said you don't "like" Him. He's not going to be shocked to hear it directly from you and He's not mad now, so He's not going to be mad if you take your honest queries to Him directly. You fear God, but you have the wrong type of fear.

I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that. But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.
But I really don't want to go to hell.

You've created for yourself quite the dilema. But, it's a dilema that's entierly made up in your own mind.
And you're being entirely unfair. You've never given Him a chance to prove His devotion to you or His unending love.
It might be interesting for you to know, He doesn't want you to "dumbly" follow Him, He wants you to be informed and knowledgeable about His will and ways.

Seriously, what do you think I should do?

That's an unanswerable question based on your refusal to take to heart what has all ready been said by Vim and Xel.
You don't want to go to hell, but you're unwilling to take the simple step of faith and trust or even entertain the idea that He just may be good. That's like saying I don't want to have a heart attack but I refuse to exercise and live a healthy lifestyle.
Good luck with that one.

[chisel]

Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

Do you think talking badly about Him 'behind His back' is less likely to make Him mad? God already knows how you feel and He knows your heart. The Bible says that He's counted the hairs on your head, you can't hide anything from Him.

I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that.

But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.

But I really don't want to go to hell.

Seriously, what do you think I should do?

No, we cannot like God. The Bible says that we were saved while we are saved while still enemies of God (Rom 5:10). You cannot force yourself to like God, it is useless and God doesn't expect that from you, in fact He sees right through it.

Let me give you a parable that I've read in a book by Charles Spurgeon. A great artist visited a city a few centuries ago, and we was asked by the mayor of the city to paint some images of the city. The artist noticed a street sweeper and decided that he would make an appropriate subject for one of the paintings since street sweepers are synonymous with the city. He asked the street sweeper to come to his house the next day so that he could pose for a painting and the artist offered a generous sum of money for this.

The next day the street sweeper arrived at the artist's house, but he had washed himself, combed his hair and put on his Sunday suit. Naturally the artist sent the man away empty handed, because he was of no use to him anymore.

Do you get the picture? Don't try and dress yourself up for God. Don't try and force yourself to like Him. It's all fake anyway, you DON'T like Him and you CANNOT like Him. Just come as you are to the cross and behold Jesus who died for you. Talk to God, tell Him that you do not understand Him and that you do not like Him. Tell Him that you don't want to go to hell, but you also don't want to be false. Just pour out your heart. Be honest! And ask Him to save you, and to give you repentance.
You cannot repent on our own and you're not capable of liking God either. But you keep on calling on Him until He answers. Until He gives you salvation.

So then after you get "born again" into a Godly nature, why won't you just go back to the way you were before? I mean Adam and Eve had a Godly nature, and they changed.

I'm not entirely sure, but I do believe that the saying, "You don't appreciate something until you've lost it applies".

See, a person might venture into danger even though they know it's dangerous. But once a person had experienced danger and been saved from that danger, they won't go back to it. A Christian's faith in God is not theoretical or academic, it is based on experience and experience is pure gold.

Look at how Peter phrases it:
In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(1Pe 1:6-7)

Tested faith is proven genuine and doesn't perish. Does that make sense?

God bless

Vim.

[Gulah Papyrus]

How'd you get that fallen nature?



yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

look for it...if you look for it, you'll find it.