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Thread: Moses - 10 commandments

  1. #1

    Moses - 10 commandments

    I was reading a thread started by a fellow 'non-believer' and per the clever rules of the forum I can offer no words of my own and thus will ask them here.

    So... Moses makes his way down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he then discovered that the Israelites had created a golden calf. To punish the people Moses gathers a group of men and issues the following action:

    Exodus 32:27-28

    Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died

    So... one minute we have God carving "Thou shalt not kill" into stone, and the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and kill thousands?

    Doesn't this break the commandment over 3,000 times?
    Where is the constancy?

  2. #2
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    Thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill. A soldier is not murdering the opposing force, neither were the levites murdering anyone.
    Call to Me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known. Jeremiah 33:3
    You put the stars in the sky and you know them by name, You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same, You are amazing, God.
    I do not 'hope' I am saved and I do not 'think' I am saved, I know it with an absolute conviction. I know that I am saved just as I know that I think and I know that I feel. I am purchased and sealed, His possession.

  3. #3
    Thou shalt not make an idol.

    they broke that one also, the early Israel congregation broke many commandments throughout their history. But God was doing a work with these children of Abraham he was making a people for himself and sometimes there was swift and direct conciquences for going against the living God. This was for the greater good of the people and to keep the people as his, because the Messiah was to come from them for the salvation of the world, and they were to follow him and not the Egyptians culter or any other on for that matter.

    From the outside looking in Israel had a burden, they were to do what was right in the eyes of the Lord and not what was right in the eyes of men. As believers today are to do also no matter how un P.C it may seem to man.


  4. #4
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    As you well know Israel was always a nation under attack and were thus quite warlike for a people (thus constant threat of rebellion and banditry in Jesus time). Decimation was a doctrine that kept the Roman Army marching, why not Israel?

    God owes nothing to anybody and all those who come to him can only do so under his terms. Stop looking at things from a humanist perspective and step back and look within the scope of eternity.
    "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
    -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

    "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

    Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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    That was a very good question.
    I will do my best to give an answer though I must be very careful as I am speaking for the Lord my God.

    The first three commandments are:
    ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

    TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

    THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

    From your question the Israelites broke these commandments.

    I found the following in a commentary regarding "thou shall not kill:"
    The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder.

    God is just and His decisions are as well. We are called to a very high calling when we choose to follow Him as our God. We can't have Him as one and something else as another. He won't have it..and He doesn't have too.

    Killing the enemy is something that has to be done. We know that because of war. If we didn't the enemy would take control over us. In this instance that you shared, some of the men had chosen to be enemies of God by doing what they did.

    I hope you will ask more questions about this, because it is not always easy to answer, and I think you asked a very good question.
    .................The message of the cross divides the human race." ~MW~

    ........ ... " LORD, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant..."
    .................................................. .................................................. ...Nehemiah 1:11a




  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ImmenseDisciple View Post
    Thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill. A soldier is not murdering the opposing force, neither were the levites murdering anyone.
    Murder, Kill, it doesn't matter how it's interpreted, it means the very same thing, the message is as clear as day.

    If an agent of the government came to your door one morning and murdered your children in the name of God, would this be peachy with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    Thou shalt not make an idol.

    they broke that one also, the early Israel congregation broke many commandments throughout their history. But God was doing a work with these children of Abraham he was making a people for himself and sometimes there was swift and direct conciquences for going against the living God. This was for the greater good of the people and to keep the people as his, because the Messiah was to come from them for the salvation of the world, and they were to follow him and not the Egyptians culter or any other on for that matter.

    From the outside looking in Israel had a burden, they were to do what was right in the eyes of the Lord and not what was right in the eyes of men. As believers today are to do also no matter how un P.C it may seem to man.
    Please refer to my avatar.

    Does this give me or anyone the right to murder?

    Quote Originally Posted by karenoka27 View Post
    That was a very good question.
    I will do my best to give an answer though I must be very careful as I am speaking for the Lord my God.

    The first three commandments are:
    ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

    TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

    THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
    I understand what you're saying, however the 10 commandments were very clear and easy to understand, does this justify breaking them? Furthermore did Moses and or God give them a chance to redeem themselves after hearing the new word of God via Moses? Or were they killed before they could repent and ask for forgiveness? Today if the Christian Church killed or even turned away those wrong-doers it would be a very small religion indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by karenoka27 View Post
    From your question the Israelites broke these commandments.

    I found the following in a commentary regarding "thou shall not kill:"
    The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder.

    God is just and His decisions are as well. We are called to a very high calling when we choose to follow Him as our God. We can't have Him as one and something else as another. He won't have it..and He doesn't have too.
    The Qur'an?

    Do not kill unjustly: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33)

    Quote Originally Posted by karenoka27 View Post
    Killing the enemy is something that has to be done. We know that because of war. If we didn't the enemy would take control over us. In this instance that you shared, some of the men had chosen to be enemies of God by doing what they did.
    What enemy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deut64 View Post
    Murder, Kill, it doesn't matter how it's interpreted, it means the very same thing, the message is as clear as day.
    It does matter, because murder and kill don't mean the same thing. It goes beyond simply the blanket statement that it would be if it said "kill" and in doing so clarifies that there can be situations in which the taking of life is justifiable. I'm not playing semantics - murder and kill really do mean vastly different things.

    If an agent of the government came to your door one morning and murdered your children in the name of God, would this be peachy with you?
    The government do nothing "in the name of God". Even if I was a soldier on a battlefield and an opposing soldier killed me, I doubt I would be quite "peachy" - but I might accept that he was doing his job, and hadn't murdered me.
    Call to Me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known. Jeremiah 33:3
    You put the stars in the sky and you know them by name, You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same, You are amazing, God.
    I do not 'hope' I am saved and I do not 'think' I am saved, I know it with an absolute conviction. I know that I am saved just as I know that I think and I know that I feel. I am purchased and sealed, His possession.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deut64 View Post
    Murder, Kill, it doesn't matter how it's interpreted, it means the very same thing, the message is as clear as day.
    They absolutely have different meanings. For you to deny any difference is merely a belief of convenience--something you want to believe 'just because'. Never mind that it's a belief of convenience; it's willful ignorance.

    Now here's the thing. Two commandments, 'Thou shall not make an idol' and 'thou shall not murder'. You want to ignore the former, 'Thou shall not make an idol' and redefine the latter, 'though shall not kill,' and play your own little game. You aren't arguing against biblical teaching. . . You're arguing against a caricature you yourself have set up. I'm not playing by the rules of that game.

    Your entire premiss is based on the false assumption that the command is 'thou shall not kill'. Now you're squirming, because if the commandment is murder (unjust killing), instead of kill (just), then you have nowhere to stand.

    It turns out you really don't have anything to stand on.

  9. #9
    No it doesn't give you the rigth to kill, as believers we are under a new covinent (Jesus) and his commandment are to Love God and eachother.

    what about your avitar ?


  10. #10
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    As others have pointed out, there are two different words used. What God etched into the stone in Exodus 20 is not the same thing he commanded in Exodus 32.

    That is why modern translations more accurately use the word murder in Exodus 20. Even the Septuagint, Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses two different words.

    You might be interested in this commentary from Merriam-Webster's where it distinguishes the difference between murder and kill and a few other words that involve taking life . . .
    kill merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner 〈killed in an accident〉 〈frost killed the plants〉. slay is a chiefly literary term implying deliberateness and violence but not necessarily motive 〈slew thousands of the Philistines〉. murder specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility 〈convicted of murdering a rival〉. assassinate applies to deliberate killing openly or secretly often for political motives 〈terrorists assassinated the Senator〉. dispatch stresses quickness and directness in putting to death 〈dispatched the sentry with one bullet〉. execute stresses putting to death as a legal penalty 〈executed by lethal gas〉.

    Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.

    So as you can see, kill is more generic than murder. All murder is killing. Not all killing is murder.

    Hope that clarifies a little more.

    Joe
    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

  11. #11
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    Murder is rightly defined in most jurisdictions as intentional unlawful killing - the killing you refer to was punishment - lawful execution for idolatry - an early form of capital punishment, I guess.

  12. #12
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    Its ok for God to kill those he creates. If i build a tree house well but when push comes to shove it eventually turns out to be a junky tree house that doesnt fulfill its purpose do i not have the right to scrap it and do something else with my time? In the same way God created us to be in communion and to worship Him as he communes and worships within himself. Do you still call scrap metal a car? No, because a car is something that does its purpose.

    Inherently, all these examples dont fit the scope of what we are talking about at all well. We are made in the image of God...think about that for a minute, about what that implies. We are made with characteristics endowed like those of God, and also some of the capacities of God (creating, thinking etc). In that sense our responsibility and accountability are much moreso than that of simpler creations like those illustrated.

    Look at the humans race! Look what we do to each other and look how we treat God! We have fallen far short of His glory and we do deserve to be turned into scrap.....but, the variable we needed came to earth in the from of a man 2000 odd years ago. God so loves us, loves his creation, that he came to earth as a man and paid the price that a Just and Holy God required of a unholy and rebellious creation. Do you get what all the fuss is about? The scope of what you think so little of....is beyond what any of us can truly comprehend in its entirety.
    Last edited by Tanya~; May 1st 2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Removed quoted portion of deleted post. Please address all posts to the OP. Others may start a new thread. Thanks.
    "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
    -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

    "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

    Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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