Amils - has Rev. 19:17-21 occurred yet?

[Merton]

What about Isa 65 and what it says of the new heavens and new earth? Is that a future millennium also?

Paul

Paul,

The new heavens and earth of Isaiah ch 65 is described in Isaiah ch 65 and ch 66, even back from Ch 60. (with many descriptions of events in the world which lead up to that time as described in Daniel.)

It is also described in Rev. chs 21 and 22.

What you have to do is take stock of the descriptions of the new heaven and earth in those chapters and try to make out of them an eternal situation on an eternal earth with no more sea, no more nations, and no more flesh.

The fact is that you can no do so, nor can you show that such a time exists now before Christ returns.

Merton.

[wpm]

Paul,

The new heavens and earth of Isaiah ch 65 is described in Isaiah ch 65 and ch 66, even back from Ch 60. (with many descriptions of events in the world which lead up to that time as described in Daniel.)

It is also described in Rev. chs 21 and 22.

What you have to do is take stock of the descriptions of the new heaven and earth in those chapters and try to make out of them an eternal situation on an eternal earth with no more sea, no more nations, and no more flesh.

The fact is that you can no do so, nor can you show that such a time exists now before Christ returns.

Merton.

So the millennium is also the last days and the new heavens and new earth???

That sounds about right.

Paul

[Merton]

So the millennium is also the last days and the new heavens and new earth???

That sounds about right.

Paul

The millennium is in the last days according to Isaiah ch 2 and the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah chs 65-66 is in the last days as well but it is not the recreated new earth of the eternal state which is after the last judgment.

The last days of this present earth extend from the time of the cross through the millennium of the last day.

Christs day is not a single day but is the last day of this present earth.


I am not trying to convince you particularly but others who follow the bible without using Chiltons teachings will get to understand it.


Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, Days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and will not see.
Luk 17:23 And they will say to you, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! Do not go away, nor follow.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning lighting up out of one part under heaven to one part under heaven shines, so also will the Son of Man be in His day.


We now live in the time of the selection of Christ's Bride who suffer in this life as He did, (Heb.ch 12) but the time of the reigning of the saints with Christ over the nations is further ahead after His return, in His day, but well before the burning up of this present creation with all of the ungodly of all time.

Merton.

[wpm]

The millennium is in the last days according to Isaiah ch 2 and the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah chs 65-66 is in the last days as well but it is not the recreated new earth of the eternal state which is after the last judgment.

The last days of this present earth extend from the time of the cross through the millennium of the last day.

Christs day is not a single day but is the last day of this present earth.


I am not trying to convince you particularly but others who follow the bible without using Chiltons teachings will get to understand it.


Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, Days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and will not see.
Luk 17:23 And they will say to you, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! Do not go away, nor follow.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning lighting up out of one part under heaven to one part under heaven shines, so also will the Son of Man be in His day.


We now live in the time of the selection of Christ's Bride who suffer in this life as He did, (Heb.ch 12) but the time of the reigning of the saints with Christ over the nations is further ahead after His return, in His day, but well before the burning up of this present creation with all of the ungodly of all time.

Merton.

So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul

[Clifton]

So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul

I believe he was more descriptive in saying "recreated new Earth" (when this current physical Earth will be sent away) which fits the context and distinguishes the Hebrew and Aramaic Idioms... after the Flood with Noah in The Ark there was a 'new Earth' - when you became a Christian you became a new creature - same body, which will also become anew in the eternal.

Blessings.

[ShirleyFord]

I believe he was more descriptive in saying "recreated new Earth" (when this current physical Earth will be sent away) which fits the context and distinguishes the Hebrew and Aramaic Idioms... after the Flood with Noah in The Ark there was a 'new Earth' - when you became a Christian you became a new creature - same body, which will also become anew in the eternal.

Blessings.

But Clifton (sorry I called you Hawk), God didn't create a new earth after the flood. The same old earth before the flood was the same old earth after the flood. The only thing different, all living people and animals who were not in Noah's ark at the time of the flood were destroyed off the old earth.

This is what God said to Noah concerning the purpose of the flood:

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.


23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


Where do you find mentioned concerning God destroying the old earth with the flood and recreating a new earth afterward?

[Clifton]

But Hawk, God didn't create a new earth after the flood. The same old earth before the flood was the same old earth after the flood. The only thing different, all living people and animals who were not in Noah's ark at the time of the flood were destroyed off the old earth.

This is what God said to Noah concerning the purpose of the flood:

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.


23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


Where do you find mentioned concerning God destroying the old earth with the flood and recreating a new earth afterward?

I'm sorry, I do not understand you. I'm not Hawk, and I did not say anything about God "recreating a new Earth". The word "new" in the Bible, as well as in today's age, does not always refer to something 'totally destroyed" and "rebuilt" (or "recreated"). The contexts reveals the meaning(s);

For those of us that accept the Apocalypse of John, (and DSS Revelation, as far as a new earth is concerned), the only reason we see that this current physical Earth will be gone and there will be a brand new Earth (though it might be termed as a "metaphysical" one) is due to the texts that reveal that this current physical Earth will be sent away, and will have fled away, and all things being 'made new'.

As for after The Flood, the whole physical Earth was not destroyed, but the surface pretty much was, thus, a new Earth is an applicable term.

Blessings.

[Merton]

So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul

Paul,

The new Heaven of Isaiah ch 65 is the new Heavenly rule of the saints of the New Jerusalem from above come down,(Rev.21) and the new earth of Isaiah is the changed conditions of the present earth in which mortal people live.

Hence the reason for the presence of flesh in Isaiah ch 66.


There is only one period called the last days in the bible which spans from the cross to the last judgment.

Christ will reign with His saints over the nations who will not learn war during the last day, which is still in the last days.

The book of Rev. is mainly dealing with the changing of the rulerships over our present earth in our future at the return of Christ some thousand years before its burning up with all ungodly of all ages. (A better term is the years of the thousand)


Merton.

[ShirleyFord]

I went back and edited my post shortly after I had posted it and noticed that the post was by Clifton and not by Hawk (as I incorrectly assumed while writing my post) to read:

But Clifton (sorry I called you Hawk),

Sorry you didn't catch that.

[Clifton]

I went back and edited my post shortly after I had posted it and noticed that the post was by Clifton and not by Hawk (as I incorrectly assumed while writing my post) to read:



Sorry you didn't catch that.

Quite alright Shirley . I know many of us have to go back and edit our posts, and woah, oh how many times I have done mine as well...

...if only I had a dollar for every time I have hit the PREVIEW POST and EDIT Buttons.

Blessings.

[ShirleyFord]

The millennum is the last day of the last days.

Merton.

But Jesus said that these things occur on the last day:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48)

Premill believe that the physical resurrection of the righteous is before the thousand years at the Second Coming of Christ. But that the judgement of the wicked is after the thousand years.

But Jesus taught that both happen at the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

So the last day must be after the thousand years have expired and after the devil's tribulation of wrath. at the Second Coming of Christ.

[Merton]

But Jesus said that these things occur on the last day:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48)

Premill believe that the physical resurrection of the righteous is before the thousand years at the Second Coming of Christ. But that the judgement of the wicked is after the thousand years.

But Jesus taught that both happen at the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

So the last day must be after the thousand years have expired and after the devil's tribulation of wrath. at the Second Coming of Christ.

Here we must pay attention to detail.

"at the last day" in the last day" is after all "a day" of "the last days."

Luke 17:26 gives the day of Christ as being many 24 hour days.

Also-

Christ spoke of two groups of people who are saved in John 5.

One group of the saved who DO NOT come into judgment,(being judged progressively before they die) these are in the first resurrection near the beginning of the thousand years--

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.


The other group of the saved who do come into THE judgment, that is the

sheep and goats after the thousand years---

Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.



The necessary qualifications required, in order to be in the first resurrection is far greater than that of being among the saved sheep after the thousand years.


as stated by the Apostle Paul--


Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ.
Phi 3:8 But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith,
Phi 3:10 to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death,
Phi 3:11 if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.


Look up how often Paul mentioned hell in his ministry.


Both Christ and Paul ministered differently to the saved than to the unsaved.


Merton.

[fellowservant]

The beast's army are all the wicked!!!


Paul

An army is an army, you can only have so many people in it at a time.

If all the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. Who will Christ reign over with a rod of iron during the Millenium?


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.




According to Daniel after the beast is given to the burning flame (ie the lake of fire) God spares some of the kingdoms that the beast had power over.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



God bless

[wpm]

I'm sorry, I do not understand you. I'm not Hawk, and I did not say anything about God "recreating a new Earth". The word "new" in the Bible, as well as in today's age, does not always refer to something 'totally destroyed" and "rebuilt" (or "recreated"). The contexts reveals the meaning(s);

For those of us that accept the Apocalypse of John, (and DSS Revelation, as far as a new earth is concerned), the only reason we see that this current physical Earth will be gone and there will be a brand new Earth (though it might be termed as a "metaphysical" one) is due to the texts that reveal that this current physical Earth will be sent away, and will have fled away, and all things being 'made new'.

As for after The Flood, the whole physical Earth was not destroyed, but the surface pretty much was, thus, a new Earth is an applicable term.

Blessings.

But the first John sees a new earth is after the millennium. You introduce the "new heaven and a new earth" at the beginning of your millennium, when John expressly makes no reference to it until after Satan's little season. I feel you and John are at odds.

Paul

[wpm]

An army is an army, you can only have so many people in it at a time.

If all the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. Who will Christ reign over with a rod of iron during the Millenium?


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.




According to Daniel after the beast is given to the burning flame (ie the lake of fire) God spares some of the kingdoms that the beast had power over.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



God bless

Daniel's beasts represent ancient wicked kings/kingdoms that are long gone. These are tributaries of the overall beast kingdom. The beast in Rev represents that overall spirit of antichrist that has existed from the beginning. It is destroyed at Christ's Coming.

Paul

Paul