Falling away...

[merjorg]

Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

[merjorg]

Since making my original post, I read some old threads on the topic which definitely helped my understanding.

[alethos]

Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

"Scot McKnight, who surveys and interacts with a variety of approaches to the interpretation of this passage provides a fresh, detailed formal analysis of 6:4-6 and the other warning passages in Hebrews, suggesting that the warning passages, especially 6:4-6, should be read synthetically in relationship to one another rather than individually. Based on his analysis McKnight concludes that the warnings address the sin of apostasy, and that although believers experience the reality of salvation in the present, a failure to persevere to the end can result in the cessation of that reality."

[9Marksfan]

"although believers experience the reality of salvation in the present, a failure to persevere to the end can result in the cessation of that reality."

In other words, he thinks that you can truly have salvation and can truly lose it. So, God either breaks His promises deliberately and can't be trusted (Jn 10:28-30) or can't keep His promises and shouldn't be worshipped as Almighty, 'cos WE'RE stronger than Him!

[fewarechosen]

hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.
then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[Partaker of Christ]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Does this refer just to a physical death?
I don't truly know, but what of Enoch and Elijah? What of those who remain and are alive at His second coming?

Before the fall, Adam was alive in spirit, and all mankind was in Adam, so all mankind was alive before the fall.
After the fall Adam died in spirit, and so also did all mankind.

So spiritually we have all without exception died once in Adam, and then the judgment.
When we put our trust in Christ Jesus, we are made alive again through regeneration.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We know from scripture that the lake of fire is the second death (the judgment). If this is a second death for the unregenerate who have rejected Christ, then according to some, that must surely mean a third death, for those who are said to have fallen away.

It would infer that some would receive 'the judgment' twice.

The word 'fall away' in Heb 6:6 is not 'apostasia', but 'parapipto' and it is akin to A, No 2. 'paraptoma'

<B-7,Verb,3895,parapipto>
akin to A, No. 2, properly, "to fall in one's way" (para, "by"), signifies "to fall away" (from adherence to the realities and facts of the faith), Heb_6:6.

<A-2,Noun,3900,paraptoma>
primarily "a false step, a blunder" (para, "aside," pipto, "to fall"), then "a lapse from uprightness, a sin, a moral trespass, misdeed," is translated "fall" in Rom_11:11-12, of the sin and "downfall" of Israel in their refusal to acknowledge God's claims and His Christ; by reason of this the offer of salvation was made to Gentiles; cp. ptaio, "to stumble," in Rom_11:11. See FAULT, OFFENSE, SIN, TRESPASS.

<A-3,Noun,646,apostasia>
"a defection, revolt, apostasy," is used in the NT of religious apostasy; in Act_21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostasy from Moses." In 2Th_2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels. Note: For "mighty fall," Rev_18:21, RV, see VIOLENCE.

[Partaker of Christ]

hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.
then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.

I think this is what is called a 'straw man' argument.

[fewarechosen]

then please correct me for i am a fool

[Clifton]

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Literally, "it is appointed unto men to die once" (i.e., only one time), which is an antidote for the notion of the transmigration of souls - IOW, leaving a body behind in one life, and the soul entering into a new body in a next life, continuously.

Obviously, not each and every person meet that "appointment". You pointed out Elias and Enoch, and there have been those raised from the dead, whom have died more than once.


Blessings.

[ARCHER42]

Literally, "it is appointed unto men to die once" (i.e., only one time), which is an antidote for the notion of the transmigration of souls - IOW, leaving a body behind in one life, and the soul entering into a new body in a next life, continuously.

Obviously, not each and every person meet that "appointment". You pointed out Elias and Enoch, and there have been those raised from the dead, whom have died more than once.

Blessings.

Good point... There was the young girl who Jesus raised from the dead.. then Lazarus.... There was a young girl in the Book of Acts who was raised from the dead... I would come to understand that these people later on would eventually fall asleep again.. (die) physical death....

[servant of Lord]

Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

I know from experience for myself that walking away from Him is really hard for me to understand. He is so great and had come and changed so much in my life. He filled me with His Holy Spirit and oh what joy I had. The fellowship with Him was awesome...the peace was not of this world. The annoiting was upon me...but then how could I fall ? If He loved me and said that He would never leave me or forsake me ? what happened ?
I did learn this: Jesus is the Good Sheperd. He came and got me. I had hard time understanding how He could or would forgive me for what I had done..to have felt the love and power of His Spirit and walk back out into the world..
But , through a very dark time in my life Jesus taught me alot..How the cares of this world had gotten to me..I am not perfect..but He works on me dailey..I am thankful that He corrects me and guides me to truth in Him...when I stumble He shows me what happened and helps me to overcome by His spirit..
I still feel though ...I hate that I ever walked away as I did..it seems I lost something when I did..never have I felt the peace and power of annoiting as I did..I know though that He forgave me..though it was hard for me to forgive myself..
I want to be a vessel of honor and not dishonor...But praise God that in the word He tells us that rejoicing happens in heaven when one returns to the Lord...But oh , how for myself would I wish that I had stayed on the path...I struggled and cryed out for months upon months to all I knew to pray..I was strattling the fence...and then one day I jumped on over and ran in the world ....but oh, the sweet voice of My Lord called out to me..calling me to come home...and I came..He washed me in teh Blood and forgave me of the sin...oh, what a Jesus we have...

[2Witnesses]

Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

Merjorg,

These verses have nothing to do with a believing Christian 'falling away' and losing his salvation.

This is spoken to Israel who, while Yeshua was among them, rejected Him, though they saw His wonderful works.

So the 'green tree' Jesus spoke of while on His way to the cross, dried up, and became thorns, fit only for burning. And in 70AD this happened.

2Witnesses

[9Marksfan]

hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.

It is Christ who saves - and why di you say "which" not "who"?

then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

I didn't say that you can never stray - Scripture doesn't teach that - look at King David and Peter for a start!

i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

While I accept that this phenomenon is tragically all too common, it results from false teaching about eternal security and is imho evidence that the person's heart has never been regenerated. What is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to people who need Christ?

so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

As I said, I'm not saying that and Scripture absolutely does NOT teach that. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness.

but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

No - and I actually agree with you - folks that have that mindset - that have a little knowledge of the gospel but use the grace of God a sa licence to sin may well end up committing the unforgivable sin - as the old divines used to say - it is light in the head but darkness in the heart - a situation we should all fear......

its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

What's your point about the verse? I believe (as I assume you do) that only those who endure to the end will be saved - the grace of God never leaves a person's life unchanged - they will hate sin increasingly and strive to be holy - that is the evidence of the Spirit's presence in there lives - if they're casual about sin, Scripture says they never knew God in the first place.

[graceforme]

It is Christ who saves - and why di you say "which" not "who"?



I didn't say that you can never stray - Scripture doesn't teach that - look at King David and Peter for a start!



While I accept that this phenomenon is tragically all too common, it results from false teaching about eternal security and is imho evidence that the person's heart has never been regenerated. What is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to people who need Christ?



As I said, I'm not saying that and Scripture absolutely does NOT teach that. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness.



No - and I actually agree with you - folks that have that mindset - that have a little knowledge of the gospel but use the grace of God a sa licence to sin may well end up committing the unforgivable sin - as the old divines used to say - it is light in the head but darkness in the heart - a situation we should all fear......



What's your point about the verse? I believe (as I assume you do) that only those who endure to the end will be saved - the grace of God never leaves a person's life unchanged - they will hate sin increasingly and strive to be holy - that is the evidence of the Spirit's presence in there lives - if they're casual about sin, Scripture says they never knew God in the first place.

Good words. I am weary of hearing people say that those of us who believe in OSAS think we have a license to sin .... I've known many sinners in my life and participated in sin myself - a lot - and I've never known anyone who had to have a license - we all sinned quite easily without one. Grace is much more capable of keeping us from sin than the Law ever did or ever will. Otherwise, Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary. Yes, I can do whatever I want, but my "want to" has changed. That change came about when God's grace changed my heart. If the grace of God isn't enough to motivate us to obey God out of love, not fear, then maybe we should take a careful look at the condition of our heart.

Many blessings to all.

[fewarechosen]

again mark we might totally agree lol

i used holy spirit just meaning its whatt gods sends and marks us with so we know.

---- now do you think its possible for someone to recieve the holy spirit then commit such sin that there will be no place found for him in heaven ?

now as far as truly saved --someone who is truly saved will never fall away, but are you saying that recieving the holy spirit makes one truly saved ?