Does OT Isreal = NT Church?

[Naphal]

Only because we've made it so. When you boil it down to one people, both Jew and Gentile, all saved by the same death of Christ on the cross, it becomes quite simple.

When I first started using a computer it was very complex and full of new things I didn't understand or know about. After enough time, it began to be easier to understand. This topic is similar to those who are first beginning to see the relationship of the Church and true Israel vs. those not in Christ

[wpm]

There has to be two separate entities... the Church's responsibility toward Israel is to provoke them to jealousy in the end times... not all Israel is saved because a prophecy in Romans 11:26 says that all Israel will be saved... So Jesus doesn't make the church Israel... we become grafted in to the promises, but the reality is that there is a marked difference between Israel and the church... I have yet to find the marked difference but I know it's there

there is still an unfulfilled promise that God has yet to fulfill to Israel and that's the salvation of all Israel in Romans 11:26

Let us establish what "all Israel" is from Paul's introductory remarks in Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Paul

[Naphal]

Let us establish what "all Israel" is from Paul's introductory remarks in Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Paul

It's all right there isn't it?

Gill

for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all את ישראל, "the Israel", by way of emphasis, as in Psa_25:22, or the "Israel of God", Gal_6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges; the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", 1Co_10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, Joh_1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect; though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt".



Clarke

Abraham is the father of many nations; and his seed is not only that which is of the law, but that also which is of the faith of Abraham, Rom_4:16, Rom_4:17. The Gentiles were included in the Abrahamic covenant as well as the Jews; and therefore the Jews have no exclusive right to the blessings of God’s kingdom.


Barnes

Not all Israel - Not all the descendants of Jacob have the true spirit of Israelites, or are Jews in the scriptural sense of the term; see the note at Rom_2:28-29.


Wesley

The sum is, God accepts all believers, and them only; and this is no way contrary to his word. Nay, he hath declared in his word, both by types and by express testimonies, that believers are accepted as the "children of the promise," while unbelievers are rejected, though they are "children after the flesh." All are not Israel - Not in the favour of God. Who are lineally descended of Israel.

[timmyb]

Let us establish what "all Israel" is from Paul's introductory remarks in Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Paul

but the Messiah doesn't make us the Israel that Paul is trying to tell us about in Romans 9.... There are two separate entities there... Gentiles don't become THE Israel... There is a difference there and that's what I want to find out.... not all of them are... but some of them are but what makes them Israel... keep in mind not all Israel is saved according to Romans 11:26 because we haven't seen ungodliness removed from Jacob...

[BroRog]

Only because we've made it so. When you boil it down to one people, both Jew and Gentile, all saved by the same death of Christ on the cross, it becomes quite simple.

I agree with you Luke. And it is simple. If the question is, "Is God granting justification and redemption to both Jews and Gentiles alike?" The answer is Yes.

The answer, however, gets slightly more complex if we ask, "So how is going working out history to accomplish what he wants to accomplish, especially in light of his prophetic word?"

This is where it gets interesting.

[BroRog]

Let us establish what "all Israel" is from Paul's introductory remarks in Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Paul

That's a good idea Paul. But let's not repeat the logical error others have. I typically explain the logic error this way.

The error is one of identity in which it is assumed that if a = b, then b = a, which is true as long as 'a' and 'b' are in the same category. But if 'a' and 'b' are NOT in the same category then they are not always equal.

For instance if we say, "all yellows are colors", can we also say, "all colors are yellows?" No, this doesn't make sense. While all yellows are colors, it isn't also true that all colors are yellows. Some might be reds, or blues, or greens. So 'b' doesn't always equal 'a' when a = b if the categories of 'a' and 'b' are different.

The same can be said of Paul's point that all in Israel are children of promise. To say that all in Israel are children of promise is not the same thing as saying all the children of promise are Israel.

Also notice that Paul has NOT eliminated physical descent from being a valid category for the Israel of the promise. The comparison Paul makes is between two physical children of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. Both of these boys are biological children of Abraham. The difference between them is that Isaac is a child of promise and Ishmael was not. In other words, Paul's point is to say, among the biological children of Abraham, only Isaac qualifies as being a child of God. He makes the same point with Jacob and Esau. Between the Biological children of Isaac, Jacob is the child of promise, not Esau.

So you see, Paul hasn't eliminated biology as an aspect of being an Israelite of the promise to Israel. He merely points out that among the chosen people, the sons of Jacob, God has promised to do something with a nation consisting entirely of children of promise.

[wpm]

but the Messiah doesn't make us the Israel that Paul is trying to tell us about in Romans 9.... There are two separate entities there... Gentiles don't become THE Israel... There is a difference there and that's what I want to find out.... not all of them are... but some of them are but what makes them Israel... keep in mind not all Israel is saved according to Romans 11:26 because we haven't seen ungodliness removed from Jacob...

There are 2 entities: true Israel and natural Israel. The first carries merit and eternal life, the second carries no special spiritual favour.

A saved Jew is no different than a saved Gentile - both are chosen of God.

A lost Jew is no different than a lost Gentile - they are both of their father the devil.

There are indeed 2 entities in Israel, like every other nation -saved and lost.

Paul

[Saved7]

Always wondered this. Seems to me to be the same thing, but pretty much no one agrees with me. I want to study it a little, so some different views from different people will give me a starting point, a point of reference. My own view might be skewed all by itself.

Not sure what you are looking for, but I can say this...there are a lot of similarities in the OT with Israel and her behaviour and lack of faith and holieness, the church....kind of frightening how much the church is like Israel of old.

[BroRog]

There are 2 entities: true Israel and natural Israel. The first carries merit and eternal life, the second carries no special spiritual favour.

A saved Jew is no different than a saved Gentile - both are chosen of God.

A lost Jew is no different than a lost Gentile - they are both of their father the devil.

There are indeed 2 entities in Israel, like every other nation -saved and lost.

Paul

Paul, do you have scriptural support for your two Israel theory?

[Naphal]

Paul, do you have scriptural support for your two Israel theory?

He already posted it:

Originally Posted by wpm
Let us establish what "all Israel" is from Paul's introductory remarks in Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”


Not all that is considered Israel is Israel and Paul further continues by saying the children of the flesh (that's Jews born as Jews) are the children of the flesh and are not the children of God which is now defined differently than by the flesh. This means no one is born into Israel anymore as flesh does not give one "citizenship" to Israel/the children of God.

[BroRog]

Not all that is considered Israel is Israel and Paul further continues by saying the children of the flesh (that's Jews born as Jews) are the children of the flesh and are not the children of God which is now defined differently than by the flesh. This means no one is born into Israel anymore as flesh does not give one "citizenship" to Israel/the children of God.

Yes, I'm challenging that interpretation because it does not fit the context of Romans 9. The Apostle does not say there are two Israels as if the two exist at the same time.

WPM, Paul's interpretation totally misses the point in Romans 9:5, which seems to always be ignored in these discussions.

[Naphal]

Yes, I'm challenging that interpretation because it does not fit the context of Romans 9. The Apostle does not say there are two Israels as if the two exist at the same time.

That's exactly what it says. One is only according to the flesh and the other is not.




Gill

for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel; that is, they which are the descendants of the patriarch Jacob, whose name was Israel; or who are of the Israelitish nation, of the stock of Israel, belonging to that people; they are not all ?? ?????, "the Israel", by way of emphasis, as in Psa_25:22, or the "Israel of God", Gal_6:16, the Israel whom Jehovah the Father has chosen for a peculiar people; which Christ has redeemed from all their iniquities; which the Spirit of God calls with an holy calling, by special grace, to special privileges; the seed of Israel who are justified in Christ, whose iniquities are so pardoned and done away, that when they are sought for they shall not be found, and who are saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: or in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", 1Co_10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, Joh_1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly; they have not all principles of grace, uprightness, and sincerity in them: now to these spiritual Israelites, or seed of Abraham, were the word of God, the promises of God concerning spiritual and eternal things made, and upon these they had their effect; and therefore it could not be said that the word of God had taken none effect; though the whole body of Israel after the flesh were cut off and rejected. Some copies, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, "who are Israelites"; and the Ethiopic version, "they are not all Israel who came out of Egypt".



Clarke

Abraham is the father of many nations; and his seed is not only that which is of the law, but that also which is of the faith of Abraham, Rom_4:16, Rom_4:17. The Gentiles were included in the Abrahamic covenant as well as the Jews; and therefore the Jews have no exclusive right to the blessings of God’s kingdom.


Barnes

Not all Israel - Not all the descendants of Jacob have the true spirit of Israelites, or are Jews in the scriptural sense of the term; see the note at Rom_2:28-29.


Wesley

The sum is, God accepts all believers, and them only; and this is no way contrary to his word. Nay, he hath declared in his word, both by types and by express testimonies, that believers are accepted as the "children of the promise," while unbelievers are rejected, though they are "children after the flesh." All are not Israel - Not in the favour of God. Who are lineally descended of Israel.




There are more scriptures that deal with this:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called the uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel & strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are NO LONGER STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God,

When a gentile becomes a "fellow citizen" with a Christian Jew he is an Israelite just as the Jew is. On the flip side, Jews that do not believe in Christ are cast out and are no longer "citizens" of Israel.

[wpm]

Paul, do you have scriptural support for your two Israel theory?

Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

It is important to note that there are two Israels mentioned here – namely natural and spiritual Israel. What Paul is thus saying here is: “they are not all (spiritual) Israel, which are of (natural) Israel.”

Natural Israel is the natural inhabitants or nationals of the physical nation of Israel.
Spiritual Israel is the spiritual inhabitants or nationals of the spiritual nation of Israel – the Church – they are the elect of God throughout all time, through faith.

That explains why in one breath Jesus said to the Christ-rejecting Jews “I know that ye are Abraham's seed” (John 8:37) yet in the next “If ye were Abraham's children” (in John 8:39). He was confirming that whilst they were assuredly of the physical lineage of Abraham, they were not of the spiritual lineage of Abraham. They were therefore not the true sons of Abraham. Only born again believers reside there.

Romans 8:8-9 explains this, saying, “they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (pneumatic), if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Paul

[BroRog]

That's exactly what it says. One is only according to the flesh and the other is not.

I would like to call your attention to the fact that the Apostle does NOT use the phrase "Israel according to the flesh." Israel is a corporate entity consisting of individuals, and for this reason, the Apostle speaks of "children of the flesh" and "kinsmen according to the flesh", but never "Israel according to the flesh".

I take note of the fact that Gill makes the same mistake in the passage you cite here when he confuses the distinction between the corporate and the individual.

in other words, though they are "Israel after the flesh", 1Co_10:18, yet not after the Spirit; though they are by nation Israelites, they are not Israelites "indeed", as Nathanael was, John 1:47; they are Jews outwardly, not inwardly;

While introducing the concept "Israel after the flesh" into 1Cor.10:18 where none exists, he confuses the distinction between Israel as a nation and individual Jews, whom he refers to as "Jews outwardly." Secondly, John Gill misunderstands the Apostles' concern that God's word not fail, having not properly understood the promise at issue, in which the prophet announces that God will save "each man and his neighbor". A remnant does not comprise "each man and his neighbor as John supposes.

The citation from Clarke misses the point entirely, as if Paul's concern was the universal application of the Gospel to the Gentiles, rather than the real concern that God would fail to keep his promise to the House of Judah and the House of Israel, each man and his neighbor.

The Barnes citation refers to Romans 2:28-29, which speaks of an individual Jew and has nothing at all to do with the corporate entity Israel.

Wesley also misses the Apostles' concern that God's promise to the corporate Israel will fail, instead imposing a Jew/Gentile debate into a passage where it doesn't belong.

There are more scriptures that deal with this:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called the uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel & strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are NO LONGER STRANGERS and FOREIGNERS, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints and members of the household of God,

When a gentile becomes a "fellow citizen" with a Christian Jew he is an Israelite just as the Jew is. On the flip side, Jews that do not believe in Christ are cast out and are no longer "citizens" of Israel.

The citation from Ephesians is making the opposite point. In this passage, the Apostle declares that a Gentile does NOT need to become a citizen of Israel to gain access to God. And though he says we are "fellow citizens" with the saints, he is not saying we are fellow "Israelite" citizens. He unites the citizens under Christ, rather than with circumcision or temple observance.

[BroRog]

Romans 9:6-8, which confirms, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

It is important to note that there are two Israels mentioned here – namely natural and spiritual Israel. What Paul is thus saying here is: “they are not all (spiritual) Israel, which are of (natural) Israel.”

Natural Israel is the natural inhabitants or nationals of the physical nation of Israel.
Spiritual Israel is the spiritual inhabitants or nationals of the spiritual nation of Israel – the Church – they are the elect of God throughout all time, through faith.

That explains why in one breath Jesus said to the Christ-rejecting Jews “I know that ye are Abraham's seed” (John 8:37) yet in the next “If ye were Abraham's children” (in John 8:39). He was confirming that whilst they were assuredly of the physical lineage of Abraham, they were not of the spiritual lineage of Abraham. They were therefore not the true sons of Abraham. Only born again believers reside there.

Romans 8:8-9 explains this, saying, “they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (pneumatic), if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Paul

Paul, your citations only serve to prove what the Apostle has said concerning the spiritual disposition of individual Jews. The phrases "children of the flesh" and "children of God" speak to individuals within the nation of Israel, not two different "Israels".