"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit"

[Sketch]

Faithful Friend just made the best argument against your case that I believe could have possibly been made.



Xel'Naga spoke to you a sound mindset for a Christian who has humility, and you have done nothing but reject it and become defensive.



I have pointed these things out so that you know they are not alone in their mentality towards you, and I agree with each one of them (Whether or not they agree with each other is beyond me). It's easy for each one of us to be certain and sure that our interpretation is correct, feeling like God is behind us, backing us up saying, "Yeah! That's EXACTLY what I meant!"

My real question is, where is the love in this argument, joyfilled? If we argue for the sake of Christ and the Gospel, and don't have love... what have we become?



-Casey

[Frances]

A farmer who has a field that is filled with weeds will burn it off to destroy the roots of everything so it can be planted anew.

Actually (speaking as a retired farmer) fields are burned to destroy the rubbish, eg. in strawberry fields, but the roots are not damaged and will send up new growth in the spring. If the last crop was wheat/corn/oats etc. the roots are killed when the ground is ploughed ready for the new crop.

good and useful post faithful friend.

[Christiana]

I trust this will help you see God's truth concerning the doctrine of "Once in grace, always in grace"

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.' John 6:36-39




28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)

I think these scriptures are quite revealing as to the Once Saved, Always saved belief. Especially when combined with Roman's 8.

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are genuinely in Christ, can not "fall away". In order to do so, they would have to have only "proclaimed" to be a follower with no recognition from the Father. Yes they can stumble but remain down? No. The answer to this is if they don't believe yet stood as they did, then they were never Believers. Plain & simple.

God bless.

[faithfulfriend]

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)

You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[quote/]

Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

[Christiana]

You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

I agree, in full, that it is in obedience in Christ. I believe that not all that believe they are Christian, truly are. Sadly, I've seen far too many not understand what being a Christian truly is nor do they take the time to know.I still believe that God calls His own to Him & no one can or thing can destroy it. It's those that are not called that fall away. They weren't rooted in Him. I still believe this falls in to the OSAS position because those that are truly God's (in full love & obedience) do not leave Christ. I don't believe it to be, ok, I confessed I'm a Christian, now I'm saved (& live however they want). They have to walk in obedience, though they may stumble, God is always there to make their paths straight again.

Does that speak my message clearly? DH kept calling me on the phone, as I was posting the prior post. So sorry about that.

Love in Christ.

[faithfulfriend]

I agree, in full, that it is in obedience in Christ. I believe that not all that believe they are Christian, truly are. Sadly, I've seen far too many not understand what being a Christian truly is nor do they take the time to know.I still believe that God calls His own to Him & no one can or thing can destroy it. It's those that are not called that fall away. They weren't rooted in Him. I still believe this falls in to the OSAS position because those that are truly God's (in full love & obedience) do not leave Christ. I don't believe it to be, ok, I confessed I'm a Christian, now I'm saved (& live however they want). They have to walk in obedience, though they may stumble, God is always there to make their paths straight again.

Does that speak my message clearly? DH kept calling me on the phone, as I was posting the prior post. So sorry about that.

Love in Christ.

I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

[Christiana]

I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

I will look them over when I have more time, Faithful Friend. I haven't yet compared them in full. I do have an appointment so give me a day or so, k? I live rurally & will be gone all day.

[faithfulfriend]

I will look them over when I have more time, Faithful Friend. I haven't yet compared them in full. I do have an appointment so give me a day or so, k? I live rurally & will be gone all day.

By all means take you're time. I didn't mean to come across as demanding or anything. Take as long as you like. I know everyone's schedule can be very hectic at times, or all the time.

[9Marksfan]

I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

I would love nothing more than to do that, faithfulfriend, however I won't be able to do so until much later tonight (it's 7pm here in the UK) - and I also don't want to butt in on Joyfilled's opportunity to reply. But, in brief, I believe that Joyfilled and Christiana are absolutely Scriptural in their understanding and that you are imposing your free will semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism on to the Scriptures. Everything becomes clear once you accept that the VISIBLE church on Earth is NOT made up exclusively of Christians (something presumably that we would all accept!). Once THAT is accepted, ALL these verses fit into place - even the ones you have cited!

[Joyfilled]

You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:4, and 2;13, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, Romans 8:1, and 8:9, John 10:27-29, Romans 3:11, Matthew 7:18, Jude 24, Romans 8:38 contradict your interpretation, for starters.

So once again, you have to reconcile all scripture together, not find interpretations that contradict other scripture. And so far you haven't done that. so try again.

[faithfulfriend]

1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:4, and 2;13, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, Romans 8:1, and 8:9, John 10:27-29, Romans 3:11, Matthew 7:18, Jude 24, Romans 8:38 contradict your interpretation, for starters.

So once again, you have to reconcile all scripture together, not find interpretations that contradict other scripture. And so far you haven't done that. so try again.

That's exactly what I did. Reconcile all the scriptures. The scriptures you just presented still don't refute the ones I have presented, nor the parables that I have presented.

[By Faith]

Technically I believe you are both right joyfilled and france.

1. France it is called Apostasy Heb 6:4-6
Joyfilled I think the part of the scripture that you should pay close attention to is the part where it clearly identifies that this person has receieved the Holy Spirit, which means they have rece salvation. But they backslid they turned away from God with all there knowledge. What they have truly done is re cruicify Christ and if we believe as Christians we can force God to watch His only begotten son be hung on a cross and made a mockery of again (heb 6:6)than that is insane. There was a previous post asking why did God kill so many people...well God does not deal with this kind of thing lightly.
Another Point that would show us this is Satan who is the original apostate. He fell from God's grace and He kicked him out of Heaven so it can happen.
2. Repentance is to change your attitude towards God so that you can walk with Him...Here God is denying repentance. That is a horrible thing. In these days most preachers preach about love love love but John the forerunner of Christ preached repentance so did Jesus. We need to be preaching about repentance. People choose to look over this because it is harsh but this is the truth. God don't take no mess. It is the cold hard truth and this is why we FEAR God. Look the last time His only begotten Son got mad he flipped over tables and started whipping folks.

Now about the fruit...as we read the bible it is important to know 1. who is talking 2. Is this a letter or a gospel 3. If it is a letter who is it to and why. Now if it is a gospel what is this parable about what was the chapter before and after about to better understand who this parable pretains to.

So Matt 21:18 Jesus was talking about trying to get the disciples to understand Faith.
Luike 6:43 What Jesus is saying if you do good you produce good but if you do bad than you produce bad, but He didn't say you couldn't change between the two, so there is no contradiction there. This is a parable about the Heart. What is in your heart. If you are an apostate than obviously you will produce bad things if you are a true believer get ready for the abundantly. But just make sure we realize he never said you can't switch from good or bad. He was simply telling them what you will produce if you do one or the other.

Meat for your spiritual Diet:
You could take Luke 6:43 and cross ref it with Romans 10:10...This will tell you what the heart should be like in order to have a proper confession.

Hope this helps: May God bless you with the abundantly

[Joyfilled]

That's exactly what I did. Reconcile all the scriptures. The scriptures you just presented still don't refute the ones I have presented, nor the parables that I have presented.

No, you said that we voluntarily accept Christ which is untrue by the scriptures I presented and more. Most of the OT Holy people tried to resist God. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?" Jonah tried to run away from God's calling. Jeremiah said he was too much of a child, God had to break Jacob's hips, Paul was rounding up Christians for slaughter, all the disciples abandoned Jesus at the cross. It was only when the power of the Holy Spirit overcame those people that they could follow Jesus as Ezekiel 36:27 says; "And I will put my spirit in you and I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws."

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So accepting Christ is as voluntary as some healing you of blindness which isn't voluntarily at all.

So why do so many people want to take credit for God's work in them? Do you really think that you are that righteous? God says no and he is right.

[Joyfilled]

Technically I believe you are both right joyfilled and france.

1. France it is called Apostasy Heb 6:4-6
Joyfilled I think the part of the scripture that you should pay close attention to is the part where it clearly identifies that this person has receieved the Holy Spirit, which means they have rece salvation. But they backslid they turned away from God with all there knowledge. What they have truly done is re cruicify Christ and if we believe as Christians we can force God to watch His only begotten son be hung on a cross and made a mockery of again (heb 6:6)than that is insane. There was a previous post asking why did God kill so many people...well God does not deal with this kind of thing lightly.
Another Point that would show us this is Satan who is the original apostate. He fell from God's grace and He kicked him out of Heaven so it can happen.
2. Repentance is to change your attitude towards God so that you can walk with Him...Here God is denying repentance. That is a horrible thing. In these days most preachers preach about love love love but John the forerunner of Christ preached repentance so did Jesus. We need to be preaching about repentance. People choose to look over this because it is harsh but this is the truth. God don't take no mess. It is the cold hard truth and this is why we FEAR God. Look the last time His only begotten Son got mad he flipped over tables and started whipping folks.

Now about the fruit...as we read the bible it is important to know 1. who is talking 2. Is this a letter or a gospel 3. If it is a letter who is it to and why. Now if it is a gospel what is this parable about what was the chapter before and after about to better understand who this parable pretains to.

So Matt 21:18 Jesus was talking about trying to get the disciples to understand Faith.
Luike 6:43 What Jesus is saying if you do good you produce good but if you do bad than you produce bad, but He didn't say you couldn't change between the two, so there is no contradiction there. This is a parable about the Heart. What is in your heart. If you are an apostate than obviously you will produce bad things if you are a true believer get ready for the abundantly. But just make sure we realize he never said you can't switch from good or bad. He was simply telling them what you will produce if you do one or the other.

Meat for your spiritual Diet:
You could take Luke 6:43 and cross ref it with Romans 10:10...This will tell you what the heart should be like in order to have a proper confession.

Hope this helps: May God bless you with the abundantly

Sorry, but you are again disagreeing with Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Jude 24, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, and more. Once God delivers us of a sin, it is gone. So people don't backslide. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, that's just the beginning of the work that God will do in us.

But unfortunately, too many people think that once a person receives the Holy Spirit he's automatically as perfect as God. Not so.

So all you have to do is believe that "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" and you will then rely on the root of the tree for the health of the fruit instead of believing that you can bear good fruit by being separate from the vine.

It really doesn't appear that too many people here believe that the health of the fruit comes from the root of the tree like Jesus says it does. But you're wrong. So look to the root of the tree for strength, not your own effort apart from the root.

[faithfulfriend]

No, you said that we voluntarily accept Christ which is untrue by the scriptures I presented and more. Most of the OT Holy people tried to resist God. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?" Jonah tried to run away from God's calling. Jeremiah said he was too much of a child, God had to break Jacob's hips, Paul was rounding up Christians for slaughter, all the disciples abandoned Jesus at the cross. It was only when the power of the Holy Spirit overcame those people that they could follow Jesus as Ezekiel 36:27 says; "And I will put my spirit in you and I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws."

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don't know what version you're using, but this is what the KJV says.

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So accepting Christ is as voluntary as some healing you of blindness which isn't voluntarily at all.

Yes it is. Nobody is forced to accept him. Notice here:

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To understand Romans 3 you must understand who is talking to who.

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands," - An explanation below:

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.God is represented as looking down from heaven to see, that is, to make investigation, whether there were any that understood or sought after him.
God, the Searcher of hearts, is represented as making investigation on this very point, he looks down from heaven for this very purpose, to ascertain whether there were any righteous. In the Hebrew it is not asserted, though it is clearly and strongly implied, that none such were found. That fact the apostle states. If, as the result of such an investigation, none were found; if God did not specify that there were any such; then it follows that there were none. For none could escape the notice of his eye; and if there had been any, the benevolence of his heart would have led him to record it. To understand is used in the sense of being wise; or of having such a state of moral feeling as to dispose them to serve and obey God. The word is often used in the Bible, not to denote a mere intellectual operation of the mind, but the state of the heart inclining the mind to obey and worship God, (Scriptures below) "Lest they should understand with their heart"

Ps 107:43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD.

Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Romans 3:11 says: "no one who seeks God." - An explanation:

That endeavours to know and do his will, and to be acquainted with his character. A disposition not to seek after God, that is, to neglect and forget him, is one of the most decided proofs of depravity. A righteous man counts it his highest privilege and honour to know God, and to understand his will. A man can indulge in wickedness only by forgetting God. Hence a disposition not to seek God is full proof of depravity.

Take a look at the group of people Paul is talking to, and what he is saying about them. He is giving THEIR testimony, NOT MINE!!!!!

Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Is this your testimony?

Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Is this your testimony? I certainly hope not! Is your throat an open sepulchre that has a tongue of deceit?

Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Is your mouth full of cursing and bitterness? I certainly hope not.

Ro 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Is it your testimony to shed blood?

Ro 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Is destruction and misery YOUR ways?

Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Do you not know the way of peace?

Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Is there no fear of God before your eyes? Is that truly your testimony?

So why do so many people want to take credit for God's work in them? Do you really think that you are that righteous? God says no and he is right.

I'm not taking credit for anything about myself or my life. To God be the glory, and only God. Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.