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Thread: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit"

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    So people don't backslide.
    People don't backslide????

    II. Some did backslide.
    1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ, cursed, lied. One who does these things cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

    3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    The Bible teaches in II Peter 2:20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
    the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Then verse 21 states: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

    Also James 5:19-20 "
    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post


    People don't backslide????

    II. Some did backslide.
    1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ, cursed, lied. One who does these things cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

    3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    The Bible teaches in II Peter 2:20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
    the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Then verse 21 states: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

    Also James 5:19-20 "
    Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
    Sorry, but Peter didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit at the cross. He only received his after Jesus resurrected. There was a reason for that; if Peter had not denied Christ, he would have been killed along with Jesus which wasn't in God's will for many reasons. So no, Peter did not backslide since he didn't have enough faith in Jesus until Jesus blew on him.

    Judas was doomed from the beginning. So please read John 6:64-65 to see that Judas's heart was always hard. Do Judas was already a wolf disguised as a sheep and only responded from where he's always been.

    The NT is simply there to show us what God wants for us. And all born again Christians will be moved by the Spirit to follow God as Ezekiel 36:27 & Romans 8:9 tell us. The indwelling Holy Spirit inside of us makes it way too uncomfortable to keep on sinning as this passage explains:

    1 john 3:9, "No one born of God continues to sin, indeed he cannot go on sinning because God's seed remains in him."

    So again, you need to put all scripture together and come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture. Only then will it be the right interpretation.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post

    Judas was doomed from the beginning. So pelase read John 6:64-65 to see that Judas's heart was always hard. Do Judas was already a wolf disguised as a sheep and only responded from where he's always been.
    God knows all things, and he knows the future. If he did NOT know the future, then he would not be God now would he? Foreknowledge of the future is an attribute of Almighty God, if it wasn't an attribute of Him, he would cease to be God. This scripture does not mean that Judas didn't have a choice, he did have a choice. But God knew what his decision was already going to be, because God knows EVERYTHING.

    Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    We have the option to follow God or not. We have the choice, we are not robots.

    The NT is simply there to show us what God wants for us. ANd all born again Christians will be moved by the Spirit to follow God.

    So again, you need to believe 1 john 3:9, "No one born of God continues to sin, indeed he cannot go on sinning because God's seed remains in him."

    So again, you need to put all scripture together and come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture. Only then will it be the right interpretation.
    I John 3:9 is absolutely correct. I don't disagree with that.

    Let me ask you, is committing sin a choice?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    God knows all things, and he knows the future. If he did NOT know the future, then he would not be God now would he? Foreknowledge of the future is an attribute of Almighty God, if it wasn't an attribute of Him, he would cease to be God. This scripture does not mean that Judas didn't have a choice, he did have a choice. But God knew what his decision was already going to be, because God knows EVERYTHING.

    Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    We have the option to follow God or not. We have the choice, we are not robots.

    I John 3:9 is absolutely correct. I don't disagree with that.

    Let me ask you, is committing sin a choice?
    No, it is not a choice at all. Please read Romans 7:13-25 & 1:18-26, particularly verse 24, to see why. We were all born in sin and of course didn't choose to be. We are all slaves to sin from which only the power of the Holy Spirit can free us. Only Christ has victory over Satan. Those who think that sin is a choice have no need for Christ's death on the cross. They can simply choose to be perfect on their own, which of course, is impossible.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    No, it is not a choice at all. Please read Romans 7:13-25 & 1:18-26 to see why. We were all born in sin and of course didn't choose to be. We are all slaves to sin from which only the power of the Holy Spirit can free us. Only Christ has victory over Satan. Those who think that sin is a choice have no need for Christ's death on the cross. It would then have no meaning whatsoever.
    Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.

    You believe in predestination and Once saved always saved correct? If so, I have some questions that I will be presenting to you and others that I would like answered if at all possible.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.

    You believe in predestination and Once saved always saved correct? If so, I have some questions that I will be presenting to you and others that I would like answered if at all possible.
    Yup. That's what the bible says all over the place. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you that not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    Yup. That's what the bible says all over the place. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you that not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."
    Some questions concerning the Calvinistic view of predestination:

    Some questions I would like answered:

    If we are “predestined” as you believe “predestination” to be, why does the Bible say God is no respecter of persons?

    Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

    If we are “predestined”, why does God not will that any should perish?

    Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    If I am predestined, why should I be worried about the devil?

    1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    If I am predestined, and end up in Hell, am I then justified to blame God for my eternal home?

    Also nobody has yet to explain how the scriptures in post #14 aren’t true. I have come to find that some in this thread are taking away the word “IF” from the Bible scriptures, as if to say that we do not have a choice. There are tons of verses in the Bible that prove otherwise, if anyone is interested I can take the time to show them to you.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    Some questions concerning the Calvinistic view of predestination:

    Some questions I would like answered:

    If we are “predestined” as you believe “predestination” to be, why does the Bible say God is no respecter of persons?

    Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

    If we are “predestined”, why does God not will that any should perish?

    Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    If I am predestined, why should I be worried about the devil?

    1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

    If I am predestined, and end up in Hell, am I then justified to blame God for my eternal home?

    Also nobody has yet to explain how the scriptures in post #14 aren’t true. I have come to find that some in this thread are taking away the word “IF” from the Bible scriptures, as if to say that we do not have a choice. There are tons of verses in the Bible that prove otherwise, if anyone is interested I can take the time to show them to you.
    The whole key is that none of us knows if we are being drawn by God or not, only God knows that. So all of us are without excuse.

    Of course God wants all to be saved just like all parents want our children to do the right thing! But like parents, God knows that each of us has to accept personal accountability for our actions so that we can come to our own understanding of why we need him. That's why God binds us all over to disobedience so he can have mercy on us. But only God knows each person's heart so only He can decide which ones he knows, just like an employer has the right to hire and fire whomever he pleases as Jesus explains in Matthew 20. So read and believe Romans 9:11-25 and you'll have no problem.

    Once again, the NT is simply showing us what God wants for us. The true born again Christians will take it to heart, the wolves in sheep's clothing will eventually turn away. That's all those verses you quoted are telling us. That is also the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together, not just takes verses out of context.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    The whole key is that none of us knows if we are being drawn by God or not, only God knows that. So all of us are without excuse.

    Of course God wants all to be saved just like all parents want our children to do the right thing! But like parents, God knows that each of us has to accept personal accountability for our actions so that we can come to our own understanding of why we need him. That's why God binds us all over to disobedience so he can have mercy on us. But only God knows each person's heart so only He can decide which ones he knows, just like an employer has the right to hire and fire whomever he pleases as Jesus explains in Matthew 20. So read and believe Romans 9:11-25 and you'll have no problem.

    Once again, the NT is simply showing us what God wants for us. The true born again Christians will take it to heart, the wolves in sheep's clothing will eventually turn away. That's all those verses you quoted are telling us. That is also the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together, not just takes verses out of context.
    You didn't exactly answer my questions.....

    Another question would be if we are predestined before we are even born, then who did Christ die for? Did he die for all mankind that they might be redeemed, or did he die for a select few?

    Also, why does the Bible teach repent or perish if the non-elect can't repent and the elect can't perish?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    You didn't exactly answer my questions.....

    Another question would be if we are predestined before we are even born, then who did Christ die for? Did he die for all mankind that they might be redeemed, or did he die for a select few?

    Also, why does the Bible teach repent or perish if the non-elect can't repent and the elect can't perish?
    First of all, no elect person wouldn't repent as 1 John 3:9 tells us.

    Second of all, God makes it crystal clear in Romans 9:11 that He does the choosing before we were born as does Ephesians 1:4. He does that to show that it is not by man's own effort or even desire but by God's mercy alone. If it were man's choice, then every man would think that he deserves heaven. Most atheists think they do. So man isn't qualified to determine who goes to heaven and hell because we aren't honest enough to do so. Therefore only God is qualified to choose who gets saved and who doesn't.
    Jesus died for all, for many and for few. That means that he died for every man who wants it which will be many. It also means that salvation is now open to all men, not just the Jews. But compared to those who don't want it, we will be few. All one has to do is go to an atheist forum to see that they are proud of rejecting God. So once again, that reconciles all scripture together instead of making scripture contradict itself.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    First of all, no elect person wouldn't repent as 1 John 3:9 tells us.

    Second of all, God makes it crystal clear in Romans 9:11 that He does the choosing before we were born as does Ephesians 1:4. He does that to show that it is not by man's own effort or even desire but by God's mercy alone. If it were man's choice, then every man would think that he deserves heaven. Most atheists think they do. So man isn't qualified to determine who goes to heaven and hell because we aren't honest enough to do so. Therefore only God is qualified to choose who gets saved and who doesn't.
    Jesus died for all, for many and for few. That means that he died for every man who wants it which will be many. But compared to those who don't want it, we will be few. All one has to do is go to an atheist forum to see that they are proud of rejecting God. So once again, that reconciles all scripture together instead of making scripture contradict itself.
    As nice as I can say it, you are so incorrect. We would have to spend hours upon hours first going over inherited sin, predestination, OSAS, free will, Salvation, Sanctification, etc.....

    I'm not sure where to start, or if I even should.

    An explanation of Ephesians 1:4:


    1. God has had an eternal plan in mind - a scheme of redemption for those who will accept it.
    2. Those who are chosen are those who are "in Him" (Christ) vs. 3-4
    3. We become God's children by our faith in and obedience to Christ's gospel (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
    4. The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.

  12. #42
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    Rev 3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    This shows a condition for one in order to not be blotted out of the book of life... "he that overcometh".

    Overcometh= nikaō (Strong's G3528) meaning...

    of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions
    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
    -Jeremiah 6:16

    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    As nice as I can say it, you are so incorrect. We would have to spend hours upon hours first going over inherited sin, predestination, OSAS, free will, Salvation, Sanctification, etc.....

    I'm not sure where to start, or if I even should.

    An explanation of Ephesians 1:4:


    1. God has had an eternal plan in mind - a scheme of redemption for those who will accept it.
    2. Those who are chosen are those who are "in Him" (Christ) vs. 3-4
    3. We become God's children by our faith in and obedience to Christ's gospel (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
    4. The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.
    Sorry, but God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. He is omnipotent as well as omniscient. All you have to do is see who's punishing the Jews by reading most of the OT, including and especially Deuteronomy 28:2-52. God hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. It's His sovereign choice.

    But I have a question for you; Which part of our nature does the right thing and chooses God?

    1) Our sinful nature?
    2) Or the Holy Spirit inside of us?

    If you answered A, you are incorrect because Romans 8:8 says that the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 3:11 also says "No one seeks God."

    If you answered B, that means that it is God who is moving us to follow his decrees and obey his laws as Ezekiel 36:27 explains. So free will? Heavens no!

    It's incomprehensible to me that any Christian would want to take credit for God's work in him...unless God isn't working in him. That's the only explanation for that pride.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfilled View Post
    But I have a question for you; Which part of our nature does the right thin and chooses God?1) Our sinful nature?
    2) Or the Holy Spirit inside of us?
    True Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, therefore they follow God and obey his commandments. Notice the bible says IF you love me, keep my commandments. Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God, therefore they backslid. I can choose to follow God or choose not too.

    De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    We have a choice, and we are free-will creatures. An individual can backslide, as I have shown in post #14 but nobody seems to want to respond to it. It's sorta being ignored.....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithfulfriend View Post
    True Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, therefore they follow God and obey his commandments. Notice the bible says IF you love me, keep my commandments. Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God, therefore they backslid. I can choose to follow God or choose not too.

    De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    We have a choice, and we are free-will creatures. An individual can backslide, as I have shown in post #14 but nobody seems to want to respond to it. It's sorta being ignored.....
    for the last time; where do you think the love we have for Jesus comes from?

    1) Our sinful nature
    2) The indwelling Holy Spirit?

    I'll give you a hint; it's not the first one. Because God first loved us do we have the power to love God. So that passage means that if we have the love of God inside of us, then we can remain in the vine. Once he has cleaned our cup from the inside, our outsides will become clean as well. "Ye of little faith."

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