Witness Lee and the Local Church

[Sketch]

A good friend of mine recently saw his need for Jesus Christ and became saved. Immediately he started attending 'meetings' at the place his parents went to church. On Tuesdays, some of the young adults from this church hold their own meeting in an apartment. They sing. They eat. They read scripture. Fellowship.


It sounds great. Very Acts-esque, if you will.


However, I noticed something rather strange in their tone as they approached God. In a very holy and drawn out tone, they exclaim, "Ooooh Loooord Jeeees-us" and "aaaaaaaa------men." Like letting out a deep felt moan. The only kind of bible they use, and I mean the -ONLY- kind of bible they use is called the Recovery Version. It's the bible, but with Witness Lee footnotes at the bottom, much of the time with more commentary on verses than there are verses in the bible itself. (And they all, together, read both from the bible, and from Witness Lee's commentary)


Has anyone heard of this particular sect? I found the experience to be cultish, and was also bombarded by the "elders" to accept their view on Witness Lee and the scripture. It was very strange, folks, so I thought I would come to you all to see what kinds of opinions you may have if you have heard of it.



-Casey

[acacia_gold]

I have the recovery version bible as do many people that I know and use it the same way I would a Dake's bible for the information that it contains. So far I haven't found anything in either book that I would completely disagree with. The commentaries are no different than using a McGee or Matthew Henry as a help to understand scripture, except that it's contained in the same bible. The closest I have found to the intent of the scriptural comments is the Geneva bible that the Puritans used. Mostly they refer all scripture to Christ. What I have found in attending one housemeeting is that the younger members have a harder time grasping the teachings of Lee than their parents who had attended his meetings.
The teachings of Watchman Nee, his predecessor, are the fasting growing doctrinal teachings in the world today.


btw, the Lorrrd JJJeeesus, I found disconcerting also, until I realized they were calling on the name of the Lord. It's no different than any other tradition that's in place to hold a principal in mind.

[Frances]

I've never heard of the Recovery edition of the Bible - so don't think it can be widely known. . . I wonder if the 'church' is a cult like the JW's and the recovery edition something like their New World edition? I think you are wise to be wary.

[sojourner52]

most of the information I found online says witness lee's "local church" is a cult.
The Local Church sued john ankerberg and john weldon, along with harvest house publishers, for referring to them as a cult in their book Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions. the suit was dismissed.

[RoadWarrior]

Watchman Nee was a greatly respected pastor, imprisoned for his faith when the communists took over China. Witness Lee was an emulator of Nee, but an imposter whose teaching contains much error. I think there is a radio program focused on Witness Lee's teachings. Definitely cult-ish. When anyone is focused on one particular person, they are not being disciples of Jesus, but of the person on whom they are focused. In this case, these people are disciples of Witness Lee.

[Sketch]

Thank you Road Warrior, Sojourner52, Frances, and acacia_gold for your replies to this matter. It's become a pretty intense issue in my world as of late; my very best friend is completely immersed in the Local Church. I have consistently expressed that I was disconcerted that they use the Recover Bible and rely only on Witness Lee for their teachings, but I was argued with.

He invited me out to eat last night with two of the elders ( a married couple) from his meetings. I didn't realize going into it that it was going to be a Three against One Conversion attempt. And indeed, for one hour, I was sneakily asked my version on Christianity (without knowing I was going to get slammed afterward with their beliefs), and the next hour I was talked to as if I wasn't truly experiencing Christ if I wasn't in their Church. (Although, if they were asked up front if this is what they were doing, they would have denied it. That's how they are.)


Either way, they anticipated someone who didn't know what they were talking about, and everyone of us left just as certain that we were right as we came in. I guess that's a success on everyones part. I don't want to seperate from my very best friend because of different "beliefs" within the great belief of Christ, but it's driving quite a wedge in between us.


Any advice?





-Casey

[acacia_gold]

Thank you Road Warrior, Sojourner52, Frances, and acacia_gold for your replies to this matter. It's become a pretty intense issue in my world as of late; my very best friend is completely immersed in the Local Church. I have consistently expressed that I was disconcerted that they use the Recover Bible and rely only on Witness Lee for their teachings, but I was argued with.

He invited me out to eat last night with two of the elders ( a married couple) from his meetings. I didn't realize going into it that it was going to be a Three against One Conversion attempt. And indeed, for one hour, I was sneakily asked my version on Christianity (without knowing I was going to get slammed afterward with their beliefs), and the next hour I was talked to as if I wasn't truly experiencing Christ if I wasn't in their Church. (Although, if they were asked up front if this is what they were doing, they would have denied it. That's how they are.)


Either way, they anticipated someone who didn't know what they were talking about, and everyone of us left just as certain that we were right as we came in. I guess that's a success on everyones part. I don't want to seperate from my very best friend because of different "beliefs" within the great belief of Christ, but it's driving quite a wedge in between us.


Any advice?





-Casey

My only suggestion could be to point out that the denominational divisions that they are so opposed to are what they are inacting out by causing divisions between brothers, with them being of witness Lee therby dividing Christ. Their group is all about the corperate church being everything. I don't believe they are a cult, but in practise by excluding all but themselves they do behave as one. I'm sure that can get as bitter as the argument between "higher critisism" being the way or not. Anytime a wedge is made instead of a bridge it's not Christian behavior. I pray blessings on you and your friend. I would also suggest respecting his discisions as much as you ask that yours are respected. You said his parents have been a part of their group so he's not going in blindfolded. He has every right to be there as you do not to be.

[sojourner52]

many of the things I read about them, including the words of witness lee, sure sounded like a cult!

they do have some aberrant teachings, some could be called heresy. and they believe anyone who is not a member of their church is a "wandering star." they do not believe in the Trinity, at least not as traditionally understood.

pray for your friend - and learn what you can about the teachings of this group and how it measures against the Word of God. that way, if the opportunity arises, maybe you can show your friend the errors.

[acacia_gold]

many of the things I read about them, including the words of witness lee, sure sounded like a cult!

they do have some aberrant teachings, some could be called heresy. and they believe anyone who is not a member of their church is a "wandering star." they do not believe in the Trinity, at least not as traditionally understood.

pray for your friend - and learn what you can about the teachings of this group and how it measures against the Word of God. that way, if the opportunity arises, maybe you can show your friend the errors.

I've never heard of "wandering star" (?) I advise that you look at Matthew 28:19 footnote 19(6) to read for yourself the Trinity beliefs. I wouldn't want it to be said that I defend false teachings, I don't believe they are. They merely use different wording that imo means the rose still smells like a rose. I use them only as references with all my other books that I find worthwhile to include. I agree that you should learn what you can from the teachings to know what to knowledgable say to your friend. In the words of Witness Lee "eat the meat and throw away the bones"

[Sketch]

I actually agree quite a bit with you, acacia_gold. Sometimes the worst kind of arguments are so unnecessary because we tend to enjoy throwing the baby out with the bath water. Because all of the members of the Local Church use the recovery bible, and I do believe this to be apparently wrong, it's easy to ignorantly disagree with all of their teachings.


Which, would be kind of silly. Anyone who has read Witness Lee knows that he was a highly spiritual individual, and did have a lot of great reformation ideas that he probably learned under Watchman Nee, whom I respect immensely.


However, I have found now that every time I talk to Colin now, he only tries to convince me that what they are doing is in fact the best way to recieve and experience the Spirit of God. Upon my disagreement, he claims that I am only speaking in "the self," and the self, and the mind, is only a part of Satan. (Which is another of their beliefs).




Also, I have some more information on some of the major differences between their interpretations and others. Their view of Heaven is not the typical one, as they believe after you die you go down into Haydes for either Torment or Paradise. After judgement, you either get to go to heaven, or you experience the 1000 years of something like hell. It's only after the ressurection that we get to "The New Jeruselem," which is, to them, another word and definition for what will be Heaven in the New Earth.

Quite interesting to say the least.



-Casey

[acacia_gold]

I actually agree quite a bit with you, acacia_gold. Sometimes the worst kind of arguments are so unnecessary because we tend to enjoy throwing the baby out with the bath water. Because all of the members of the Local Church use the recovery bible, and I do believe this to be apparently wrong, it's easy to ignorantly disagree with all of their teachings.


Which, would be kind of silly. Anyone who has read Witness Lee knows that he was a highly spiritual individual, and did have a lot of great reformation ideas that he probably learned under Watchman Nee, whom I respect immensely.


However, I have found now that every time I talk to Colin now, he only tries to convince me that what they are doing is in fact the best way to recieve and experience the Spirit of God. Upon my disagreement, he claims that I am only speaking in "the self," and the self, and the mind, is only a part of Satan. (Which is another of their beliefs).




Also, I have some more information on some of the major differences between their interpretations and others. Their view of Heaven is not the typical one, as they believe after you die you go down into Haydes for either Torment or Paradise. After judgement, you either get to go to heaven, or you experience the 1000 years of something like hell. It's only after the ressurection that we get to "The New Jeruselem," which is, to them, another word and definition for what will be Heaven in the New Earth.

Quite interesting to say the least.



-Casey

I'm not familiar with any of those other teachings so I really can't comment on them. I have listened to numerous radio broadcasts without ever hearing any of those things mentioned, so mho is that you have been misinformed.

[acacia_gold]

Your friend and you seem to be close so there should be no reason to not take your concerns directly to him. I have my own issues with Witness Lee's methods but not with his teaching. I'm far more interested in what Watchman Nee has to say but he did entrust his ministry to him and for that I would repect his disision on who he allowed to carry on his work. But because Watchman Nee's books are so readily available I prefer to get it from the horses mouth There are many many good teachings readily available to the seeker. What Watchman Nee and Witness Lee teach aren't new. It originated with the brethern faith and the missionaries to China. And before that going back as far as the purians teachings. It's not a new religion. It's much more complete than the watered down religion being sold these days. My seeking goes to all the ways long lost and forgotten but by no means new teachings.
The people that I have talked to from the living stream ministries all seem decent people and I don't believe that your friend is in harms way. But that's something that you need to see for yourself. Your concern obviously isn't his concern so I hope that you will come to peace about it. God bless.

Also there's not a lot of their churches in this area of the world. Their ministries are mostly overseas, so you may be concerned he may leave to minister elsewhere should he become involved indepth.

[sojourner52]

acacia_gold, you sound like an apologist for The Local Church.

their teaching on the trinity is "modalism."

In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Modalism

witness lee has called non members of his denomination (that's what it amounts to) as "wandering stars" - he is adding to the gospel by saying you must be a member of his church in order to be truly saved. he adds works to grace.

and that is also manipulation - compelling people to follow HIM rather than Christ, although he claims he is following Christ.

In the words of Witness Lee "eat the meat and throw away the bones"

But can you drink the kool aid and throw out the poison?

a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

his ministry has been labelled a cult for very good reasons.

[Sketch]

Acacia, I assure you that the elders of the Local Church in Dallas have explained to me quite fully their stand on Heaven vs. The New Jeruselem vs. 1000 Years vs. The Ressurection. It may not be exactly as I laid it out, but I assure you, bottom line, they do not believe we go to heaven after we die, and do believe we go to "Haydes."

I have gone directly to my friend with these issues. That's the reason I ended up at a 2 hour conference with him and two elders in which I was the main focus to be converted to believe fully in the teaching of Witness Lee, which I do not, have not, and will not. Using Witness Lees words as The Bible isn't right, and any discerning person should be able to see the error in this. But, it doesn't matter how you wish to say it to these people, they tend to disagree that this is what they are doing. Rather, they just "Highly Respect" the man, and see him as a visionary for the Word. Sounds nice. Subtle lies usually do.


I would like to hear your response from Sojourner, and I think some claims were made that you would probably like to comment on.

[acacia_gold]

acacia_gold, you sound like an apologist for The Local Church.

their teaching on the trinity is "modalism."

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Modalism

witness lee has called non members of his denomination (that's what it amounts to) as "wandering stars" - he is adding to the gospel by saying you must be a member of his church in order to be truly saved. he adds works to grace.

and that is also manipulation - compelling people to follow HIM rather than Christ, although he claims he is following Christ.

But can you drink the kool aid and throw out the poison?

a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

his ministry has been labelled a cult for very good reasons.

Acacia, I assure you that the elders of the Local Church in Dallas have explained to me quite fully their stand on Heaven vs. The New Jeruselem vs. 1000 Years vs. The Ressurection. It may not be exactly as I laid it out, but I assure you, bottom line, they do not believe we go to heaven after we die, and do believe we go to "Haydes."

I have gone directly to my friend with these issues. That's the reason I ended up at a 2 hour conference with him and two elders in which I was the main focus to be converted to believe fully in the teaching of Witness Lee, which I do not, have not, and will not. Using Witness Lees words as The Bible isn't right, and any discerning person should be able to see the error in this. But, it doesn't matter how you wish to say it to these people, they tend to disagree that this is what they are doing. Rather, they just "Highly Respect" the man, and see him as a visionary for the Word. Sounds nice. Subtle lies usually do.


I would like to hear your response from Sojourner, and I think some claims were made that you would probably like to comment on.

I don't know what it is you would wish that I'd comment on other than to say I don't consider myself an apologist of Lee. We all have our opinions and I've stated mine. I could have ignored this thread but I didn't because I don't believe the things said about his teachings to be true and I feel I'm quite efficient at spotting the phoney. But I don't feel inclined to be a spokesperson on his behalf so I'll bow out of the discussion and leave the rest of you to dissect his teachings. I only wished to say that I don't see them as being false. I'm not one of his followers just like I'm not a follower of Calvin, Luther or any of the other so-called-leaders of religion. I follow Christ and if that leads me to read the opinions of others I have no shame in that. Others feel compelled to defend Calvin to the death, but I honestly feel no need to say anything further.