Jesus says no to war!

[jewel4Christ]

Hi Mark,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.

Are you saying David was carnal? And what of Samson who went to war when the Holy Spirit came upon him?

I am saying that before David and Samson was converted/born again, that God used them in the same way He uses other carnal men, to bring about HIS PURPOSES...the holy spirit being ON them is not the same as the holy spirit being IN them.

The holy spirit being on them is for the purpose to put in their hearts and minds to bring about God's purposes. I am not saying that David was always in that position, no more than I would say anyone of us is....we all have been of that stance, have we not? You are not making a difference between the two, and trying to cram David, and etc into a mold that would not allow them to be shown as carnal, before their true conversions.

Here is how the holy spirit works on the OUTside of a person, entity:

Rev 17:17


"For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

This is what and how God used David, and Samson, and all the others, before they were INDWELT.

Now, would you say that the beast is a born again entity?

NO..so, I don't understand why you cannot see the difference the bible clearly makes when using the different terms, concerning HOW the holy spirit works among men.

It has been shown already that once David was converted, that he dispised war, etc, and I am not going to go through all those verses again. Everyone needs to do their OWN homework, because that is the ONLY way truth is confirmed in us anyway. I cannot change your mind, and you are NOT going to change mine..on this issue.

And again, let me ask this... does God kill those whom he loves? It has been stated over and over again that love won't kill. I beg to differ. I say God is love and that he does kill.

...what God does is not what we are allowed to do. That has been said more than once. We do NOT have the capacity to know the hearts of men, as God does...and, HE ALONE has a right to take someone out..at HIS OWN calling. Now, when He uses carnal minded men and nations to fulfill His will, they do so on His direction, but NOT by indwelling of the holy spirit. That is a contradiction, because that indwelling teaches us to LOVE OUR ENEMIES..PERIOD, and love does not harm anyone...otherwise the whole word of God makes NO sense at all.


Quote:
I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

I don't think you have answered them all. But I will answer yours. For instance, you simply said God used carnal men. When God killed Korah, who did he use? When God killed Pharaoh and his armies, whom did he use?

I would not call David, Samson, Debra or Joshua carnal. Do you?

YES, they were used the same way God will use the BEAST in the end time. God is not going to be mocked, those whom take up the sword shall die by the sword....and, ONCE David was converted and indwelt, HE DESPISED the ways of this world, and WAR.

Look up those verses again...anyone whom has come to hate war, does NOT support war. It is a contradiction in terms, bro.

Quote:
1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

There is a huge difference between the two. For instance, a carnal man will murder. A man led of the Spirit won't murder but he may kill.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

Samson, a Spirit led man in this instance, slew a thousand men. God so strengthened him, he was able to do it with a jawbone. Clearly, Samson was not operating in the power of his carnal flesh, but rather in the power and might of the Holy Spirit.

..and, in this case not ONE innocent was killed....and, this is what you are missing. When innocent blood is killed, God is NOT in it. Wars today are not fought without innocent blood being shed. Ask the muslim men whom have lost their woman and children, if you do not believe me. Ask the men and woman whom lay dead in the streets of jerusalem, or the men, woman and children whom lay dead in viet nam, etc...IF men fought with a bone, this would NOT be done. You are denying facts here. Why do you suppose God had them use a bone to begin with? Weapons of mass destruction are the RESULT OF evil men. When they are used, innocents are killed. God hates it and in no way would He EVER support this type of warfare. I don't care if you don't believe me...I know it to be the truth. If you go to war, you better just take a bone, or else you are not doing things in the same manner as what God would allow.


Quote:
2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Let me ask again before I answer this question. Did God kill innocents when he flooded the earth in Noah's day? Did he kill innocents in Sodom? What about when King Saul was commanded to kill all the Amalekites, were any of them innocent?

I already explained that to you, but you did not "get IT". They were innocent in more than ONE way. They will be raised, and judged by what they had available to them in that day. The word of God speaks to that. It will be more tolerable on the day of judgement, for example for the cities of sodom and gomorrah, than it will be for Jerusalem this side of the new covenant. The bible says that during that time, of IGNORANCE< God is able to overlook their unbelief..and, He alone will judge them fairly in the coming judgement. You must rightly divide the word of God, and stop making it contradict itself everywhere. Now, answer my question..why is it OK for you to kill innocents, while you think in your mind that God is sending you to do what has been done to others? Is God confusion? Does He speak out of both sides of His mouth? No, and in fact, He detests that twosided mouth issue, and that too, is written.



Quote:
"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

No doubt, David was a man of war and that is not what God is about. However, David was a man after God's own heart and knew the necessity of war. God is not a warmonger. But he is no war avoider either.

God himself kills and told man to do the same after the flood. He reinforced it in Romans 13.

You did not answer the question. WHY was David NOT allowed to build a house of WORSHIP to the ONE true God, while he was in his "war" state?

Please answer, and, I will show you why, because it is written.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Slug1]

2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?

Hey Janet, can you post the scripture that inspired this question?

Also, what is your definition of "innocent blood"?

[ProjectPeter]

You did not answer the question. WHY was David NOT allowed to build a house of WORSHIP to the ONE true God, while he was in his "war" state?

Please answer, and, I will show you why, because it is written.

peaceandlove,

janet

David didn't build it period... even when he was old and not warring any longer. So not sure what you see written.

[jewel4Christ]

actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.

Exactly. Even the beast has the spirit upon it, so to fulfill God's will. Is anyone here going to say that the beast is a "indwelt" entity?


Something to think about.

One thing is for sure, once David, for example was indwelt, he hated war, hated this world, and how it leads man to war.

Those things are written, but ignored.


peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

if every person on the planet wanted us to live and sought to protect us, yet god wanted us dead, we would die.

if everyone wanted us dead yet god wanted us to live, no man would kill us.

there being military or no military, police or no police. it changes neither of those 2 scenarios.

so my faith is not in any man made institution or protection but in god.

christ killed no one while here, and so i seek to do the same.

let the evil go on being evil and let the just go on being just -- for in due time we will see the difference between wars that god wages and wars that man wages

[ProjectPeter]

actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.

Uh... they only prophecied once. That doesn't mean nor imply that the Spirit left them. Simply that they never prophecied again.

[jewel4Christ]

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?

Hey Janet, can you post the scripture that inspired this question?

Also, what is your definition of "innocent blood"?

Sure, I already did, somewhere in this thread, but it was ignored...and, in fact there are many scriptures that speak on this. Just do a word search for "innocent", and you will see what I mean, but here is the main one that speaks loud and clear:


hummm, for some reason my computer won't let me paste this verse on here, it keeps deleting the rest of my post every time I try. I will have to make a separate post to put it on, I suppose.....sometimes this computer drives me bananas.......

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Here it is :

Proverbs 6:12-19 [ Verse 17 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth F20 discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud F21 look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.If God hates it, we should not be involved in it. Innocent blood is anyone NOT individually involved in the evils of a matter, for example, in the case of war, woman and children, and even men that do not support the issues are innocent.

Does not even matter if they are not christians, they are being snuffed out, before their time....for God just may of been ready to prick their hearts with His message, but, how can He do it, if man puts them to death? God is very angry.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

David didn't build it period... even when he was old and not warring any longer. So not sure what you see written.

True, but the point is that it is written that he was NOT allowed to build it until he had put the warring under his feet. God did allow him to build the true tabernacle in his heart....remember, God does not dwell in houses made by the hands of men, anyways..that is another reason we must interpret the old covenant by the new, and not the other way around. David was among the true worshippers whom worship in spirit and in truth, and, the TRUE tabernacle...ONCE he was converted.

peaceandlove,

janet

[ProjectPeter]

Here it is :

Proverbs 6:12-19 [ Verse 17 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth F20 discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud F21 look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.If God hates it, we should not be involved in it. Innocent blood is anyone NOT individually involved in the evils of a matter, for example, in the case of war, woman and children, and even men that do not support the issues are innocent.

Does not even matter if they are not christians, they are being snuffed out, before their time....for God just may of been ready to prick their hearts with His message, but, how can He do it, if man puts them to death? God is very angry.

peaceandlove,

janet

Tell me Janet... what sort of killing is not sinful killing?

[fewarechosen]

Tell me Janet... what sort of killing is not sinful killing?

im not janet but my answer is

killings that god orders -- such as to david

[jewel4Christ]

Tell me Janet... what sort of killing is not sinful killing?

That which the Lord dictates. He alone knows whom is and whom is not innocent. WE DO NOT.

There is this huge conspiracy in the land....men thinking they are god.

Haven't you heard?

peaceandlove,

janet

[Slug1]

Here it is :

Proverbs 6:12-19 [ Verse 17 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth F20 discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud F21 look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.If God hates it, we should not be involved in it. Innocent blood is anyone NOT individually involved in the evils of a matter, for example, in the case of war, woman and children, and even men that do not support the issues are innocent.

Does not even matter if they are not christians, they are being snuffed out, before their time....for God just may of been ready to prick their hearts with His message, but, how can He do it, if man puts them to death? God is very angry.

peaceandlove,

janet

OK, I just wanted to make sure cause "we" and I'm speaking for American soldiers, don't war against "innocent blood". Our soldiers war against those that would kill you just because you're not "them".

It's nice you pulled scripture from the OT where God ordered His servants to kill an entire city of men, women, children and even the livestock and then told His servants to leave all treasure. Then when that treasure was stolen the entire family of the man who took the treasure was killed to include the livestock this man owned.

Were any of these people who didn't even lift a finger against Joshua innocent?

[ProjectPeter]

True, but the point is that it is written that he was NOT allowed to build it until he had put the warring under his feet. God did allow him to build the true tabernacle in his heart....remember, God does not dwell in houses made by the hands of men, anyways..that is another reason we must interpret the old covenant by the new, and not the other way around. David was among the true worshippers whom worship in spirit and in truth, and, the TRUE tabernacle...ONCE he was converted.

peaceandlove,

janet

Um... Actually he wasn't allowed to build it because he shed so much blood. He was a man of war. That did not change the fact though that David was still a man after God's own heart and God was pleased with him.

[ProjectPeter]

im not janet but my answer is

killings that god orders -- such as to david

Why do you think God stopped ordering folks killed?