Jesus says no to war!

[Brother Mark]

so lets say we have a democracy of 10 christians you can use ten million if you want doesnt matter,

now when a foreigner shoots and kills one of them just for fun.

they all have a vote to see what to do --- do you think they will say i forgive them --- or do they vote -- we must kill them before they kill more of us ?

when you go man by man down the line and ask them -- this man killed your brother what do you say , do you forgive him and seek to help him or do you seek vengence which is our governments right

The individual forgives. The governmental authority enforces the law. God established, with just Noah and his family, all believers, the concept of capital punishment. So we have your very example in scripture. 8 souls that were saved and God commanded them how to deal with the one that murdered. He should be killed because he murdered.

Let me ask you this, do you think criminals should all be set free and "forgiven"? Are you against all forms of government that deal with the criminal element?

[evrgreenjhawk]

the harder path for sure is to let everyone around you die even in a time of war and even if they are gonna kill your family and such

i know that to be way harder , than to fight to protect them

one of the reasons i dont think i am ever going to marry or have children.

then when the devil comes for me he will already know, all his threats are just against me. i will not have those worries and hopefully god will give me strength.


but remember folks ishmeal is my brother -- and when you bomb him you bomb me. when you advocate violence against him you are advocating it against me.

love your neighbor as yourself -- again i ask do you bomb yourself ?

AMEN




peaceandlove,

janet

Back to square one....I'm done.

BM, PP, Slug and others thanks for some great insight...

[fewarechosen]

The individual forgives. The governmental authority enforces the law. God established, with just Noah and his family, all believers, the concept of capital punishment. So we have your very example in scripture. 8 souls that were saved and God commanded them how to deal with the one that murdered. He should be killed because he murdered.

Let me ask you this, do you think criminals should all be set free and "forgiven"? Are you against all forms of government that deal with the criminal element?

ok so then they all vote they go to war in your mind, interesting.

this is were we differ, i say you let the boat go around again and shoot another of your countrymen -- then another and another till you are all dead, then you have fought your enemy and piled the hottest of coals on his head, then you have said lord vengence is yours. then you have not loved your life.

remember god used to rain fire on his enemies from heaven in the OT. if god doesnt want that boat to come around again hiw will smite however he wishes -- he might have the biggest shark ever come right out and eat it -- all because the 9 men left in the christian country put themselves into gods hands -- he will protect


He thatloveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


if your question is about here in america -- first let me clear this up -- it seems like you are somehow saying i am against the military or against law officers that is not the case at all.

i say render unto ceasers what is ceasers

here in america -- to be honest, i really dont care what they do. the very laws they pass are passed by people of heathen religions --- do i think a heathen is capable of governing me ? of course not-- you on the other hand may feel fine with laws and such that where passed by people who worship false gods.

do i say in this system we set them all free , absolutely not --- i say we help them , cast the evil out of them and teach them with compassion, visit those in prison.

why does not god rain fire from heaven onto his enemies like he did in the OT surely god does not change.

[fewarechosen]

eye for an eye right mark ?

god never changes -- so shouldnt we chop the head of someone who has chopped off a head ? i mean we cant pick and choose what we want to follow -- god does not change.

god commanded to kill and god commanded an eye for an eye.

so why do we not carry that out ?

[Brother Mark]

ok so then they all vote they go to war in your mind, interesting.

War or the death penalty. God gave Noah the command.

this is were we differ, i say you let the boat go around again and shoot another of your countrymen -- then another and another till you are all dead, then you have fought your enemy and piled the hottest of coals on his head, then you have said lord vengence is yours. then you have not loved your life.

Wrong. Vengeance is not mine. But whoever was the leader of our nation would have a decision to make as leader. If he would honor God, he would take up the sword as commanded in Romans 13. If he would not honor God, he would do nothing and allow evil to flourish. As for those that had friends that were killed, they would have to forgive. But forgiveness does not mean that government and authority are not to act.

remember god used to rain fire on his enemies from heaven in the OT. if god doesnt want that boat to come around again hiw will smite however he wishes -- he might have the biggest shark ever come right out and eat it -- all because the 9 men left in the christian country put themselves into gods hands -- he will protect

When he promised to never flood the world again, he instituted the death penalty. The world became so violent, he destroyed all but Noah and his family. God decided not to do that any more so he implemented the death penalty to keep evil men in check. We see it in Genesis and in Romans and in Revelation.

He thatloveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

That's why we forgive.

here in america -- to be honest, i really dont care what they do. the very laws they pass are passed by people of heathen religions --- do i think a heathen is capable of governing me ? of course not-- you on the other hand may feel fine with laws and such that where passed by people who worship false gods.

Do not murder is a law in the US. But it didn't come from man. It came from God. Killing those that murder also didn't come from man. It came from God. However, those that resist killing murders, seem to me to have made up a law God did not!

do i say in this system we set them all free , absolutely not --- i say we help them , cast the evil out of them and teach them with compassion, visit those in prison.

But if you forgive them, why keep them in prison? They are forgiven so why punish them?

why does not god rain fire from heaven onto his enemies like he did in the OT surely god does not change.

See above. Also, God used armies in the OT. Guess what, he uses armies in the NT too. He doesn't change. However, as he knew man needed to be kept in check, he instituted the death penalty and government.

[Brother Mark]

eye for an eye right mark ?

god never changes -- so shouldnt we chop the head of someone who has chopped off a head ? i mean we cant pick and choose what we want to follow -- god does not change.

god commanded to kill and god commanded an eye for an eye.

so why do we not carry that out ?

We turn the other cheek. But those in authority, they do not turn the other cheek! They put in jail, kill, and pretty much keep order. In Rev, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron.

I cannot, of my own will take an eye for an eye. But government does need to bear the sword.

Of course, under your system, there is never any punishment for murders. Right? We are to forgive them and let them all go. Set free to murder again. Right?

[fewarechosen]

We turn the other cheek. But those in authority, they do not turn the other cheek! They put in jail, kill, and pretty much keep order. In Rev, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron.

I cannot, of my own will take an eye for an eye. But government does need to bear the sword.

Of course, under your system, there is never any punishment for murders. Right? We are to forgive them and let them all go. Set free to murder again. Right?

if we let a murderer run around and kill every last one of us, then he himself dies,


do you think god will punish him ? or do you think that is no punishment to be cast into thee lake of fire ?



christ let paul get stoned -- then raised him back up , because it wasnt his time.

no one can kill me before my time,
i will leave the worry to those who want to worry

[Brother Mark]

do you think god will punish him ? or do you think that is no punishment to be cast into thee lake of fire ?

God will punish him both through government, if government is obedient and through the lake of fire if he never repents.

christ let paul get stoned -- then raised him back up , because it wasnt his time.

Sure did. But when Romans were around, Paul appealed to them for protection. Because he recognized the role of government.

no one can kill me before my time,
i will leave the worry to those who want to worry

Not the point. But some in this thread say people can be killed before their time and that is why we shouldn't wage war. Still, the point stands that God said government should shed man's blood when man murders.

If government is to forgive as you advocate, there is no need for a court system or a penal system. Yet, we see God has both and we also see that he ordered man to have both.

[fewarechosen]

God will punish him both through government, if government is obedient and through the lake of fire if he never repents.



Sure did. But when Romans were around, Paul appealed to them for protection. Because he recognized the role of government.



Not the point. But some in this thread say people can be killed before their time and that is why we shouldn't wage war. Still, the point stands that God said government should shed man's blood when man murders.

If government is to forgive as you advocate, there is no need for a court system or a penal system. Yet, we see God has both and we also see that he ordered man to have both.

i dont advocate the government doing anything besides being christians -- i dont really care what the heathens do thats between them and god. do i wish they would do better do i try to help them do better --yes. i live here i am under their laws i uphold them. they can do whatever they want. but i am not part of this government nor this country -- they are carnal i am spirit

[Brother Mark]

i dont advocate the government doing anything besides being christians -- i dont really care what the heathens do thats between them and god. do i wish they would do better do i try to help them do better --yes. i live here i am under their laws i uphold them. they can do whatever they want. but i am not part of this government nor this country -- they are carnal i am spirit

Some people are carnal. But even so, God told us how people in government are to function. If people in government don't do as God commanded, they have sinned. God said government was to wield his sword of wrath. So it should be wielded. Whether one is a Christian or not, one should carry out the commands of God concerning government. If he is Christian, then he most certainly should carry out God's commands concerning government.

[ProDeo]

It seems that those who are in the 'pro-war' camp, consistently lean on the OT to support their position.

Hi Pinky, I noticed a different pattern, the pro-war-camp is entirely men, the no-war-camp is all about women

Ed

[pinky]

Here's a quick thought.

If it is God's will for America to make war with other nations.................why the increase in natural disasters in the US? Flooding, fires, tornadoes, hurricanes?


Is this how He rewards a nation that is serving His will?


Love you all in Christ,
pinky

[Brother Mark]

Here's a quick thought.

If it is God's will for America to make war with other nations.................why the increase in natural disasters in the US? Flooding, fires, tornadoes, hurricanes?

Is this how He rewards a nation that is serving His will?

Love you all in Christ,
pinky

There hasn't been an increase in all natural disasters. Fires have increased because man has done such a good job putting them out before. Use to be that nature would cause fires constantly and burn a lot of underbrush. Then we decided to put many out and that is why so much brush built up and yellowstone was badly burned. Not a judgment from God but a consequence of very bad management.

No major hurricanes have hit the US in over 2 years. Katrina was very bad but Cameal was very deadly as well. Fewer people die in hurricanes and earthquakes in the US now than have in the past. Hurricanes are in a 20 year upswing cycle. They will decrease again once the cycle is over. It's very well documented.

The last two tornado seasons have been very severe. Much of it probably has to do with climate change. Again, that is a natural cycle that has been occurring for many, many years.

Finally, we know that in the latter days, earthquakes will increase as a sign of the times. But that doesn't indicate judgment as much as it is a sign. God often sends an earthquake, as he did when Jesus died, when something significant is happening in the Spirit world.

In summary, it is a fallacy to say that hurricanes have increased, and that other natural disasters have increased. Fires especially are often the result of previously bad land management. The number of hurricanes will go down once this cycle is over in about another 10 years.

[pinky]

Hi Pinky, I noticed a different pattern, the pro-war-camp is entirely men, the no-war-camp is all about women

Ed

LOL

Hi Ed.

Interesting observation. I wasn't aware that all the no-war commentators are women.

That observation has the potential to take this thread into a whole new direction. LOL.

If I'm not mistaken, I think most of the 'pro-war' group (for lack of a better term) are military men. Please correct me if I am wrong.

(just for the record, my husband is retired military)



God bless,
pinky

[Brother Mark]

I have never been in the military at all. Before I was saved, I was very pro military. After getting saved, I eventually began to move towards pacifism. After that, upon taking into account the rest of scripture, I moved to where I am at today. I no longer see any scriptural evidence for the kind of pacifism being presented in this thread.