Jesus says no to war!

[RoadWarrior]

Yes, and when I find myself dealing with such things, I have to walk away from it with one thing more certain than all others, and it is: I don't know.

It seems the safer route.

Early, I'd like to use your post as a jumping off place to speak to an issue important to me, with apologies if I am off-topic.

I generally find it safest to look at a scripture in context and see why it is there in the first place.

Mt 22:18-22
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money."
So they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
21 They said to Him, "Caesar's."
And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.
NKJV

Why do we try to make scripture say something different from what it plainly speaks? Are we not therefore also wicked, and testing Jesus?

But many people will take scripture, cut it up and toss out the parts they do not like, modify what they do like so that it says what they want it to say, and then claim that what they have is truth.

My theology says that the whole Bible is truth, the OT, and the NT together. You cannot separate the two parts and toss out the first, because the first is the root of the second. Without the root, the branches die. Those who would disregard the OT need to look more carefully and see how copiously the old is quoted in the new.

End of soap box rant!

[Brother Mark]

My theology says that the whole Bible is truth, the OT, and the NT together. You cannot separate the two parts and toss out the first, because the first is the root of the second. Without the root, the branches die. Those who would disregard the OT need to look more carefully and see how copiously the old is quoted in the new.

End of soap box rant!

BTW, I like that word copiously. I agree with what you are saying here. When Jesus preached, he preached from the OT. When Paul preached, he preached from the OT. Every great doctrine of scripture can be found in the OT. The OT illustrates what is given with precept upon precept in the NT. Both are God inspired and worthy of study.

[EarlyCall]

Early, I'd like to use your post as a jumping off place to speak to an issue important to me, with apologies if I am off-topic.

I generally find it safest to look at a scripture in context and see why it is there in the first place.

Mt 22:18-22
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money."
So they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
21 They said to Him, "Caesar's."
And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.
NKJV

Why do we try to make scripture say something different from what it plainly speaks? Are we not therefore also wicked, and testing Jesus?

But many people will take scripture, cut it up and toss out the parts they do not like, modify what they do like so that it says what they want it to say, and then claim that what they have is truth.

My theology says that the whole Bible is truth, the OT, and the NT together. You cannot separate the two parts and toss out the first, because the first is the root of the second. Without the root, the branches die. Those who would disregard the OT need to look more carefully and see how copiously the old is quoted in the new.

End of soap box rant!

Well, did I give you some other impression? Everything you've said here I completely agree with. You've also said it very well. I find nothing I can disagree with.

My nature is to ask questions. I understand context, and I believe the context is not the whole of God's word but rather the whole of God's word with the author in mind. So I try to understand the mind and heart of God in His word. After all, aren't we trying to know God?

Maybe I was misunderstood. To understand the scripture better, I believe in asking questions even if I suspect they lead nowhere. It is the process of working through a thing. I believe it has value.

Did I say or suggest that giving unto Caesar was something we could take away from that scripture? No. But did I ask the question? Yes. Absolutely. By asking the question it puts us on the path to working through it that will result in a better understanding had we not.

I just read this scripture from the Bible,but I went back a verse or two. And I don't think this is necessarily off-topic.

Here is why I asked the question to begin with. Here is my thought process.

They came to Jesus to trap Him. Taxes were the pretext. More so I believe than they were the context.

I'm sure you would agree with me that every word of God, God chose carefully. Jesus chose His words carefully. I look at not only what is said but at what is not said but could have been said.

Jesus did not say, pay your taxes. I believe Jesus did not call them hypocrites because they asked Him about paying taxes but for another reason. Again, I believe the taxes were the pretext. After all, they came to Jesus to trap Him in His words. Were they really there to determine whether they should pay taxes or not? It doesn't seem so from the whole of it.

Jesus could have said, pay your taxes, but He didn't. Why not? Instead Jesus said, give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Did Jesus choose to go beyond merely paying taxes? What was Caesar's? Was the only thing due Caesar taxes and nothing more? Did Jesus know what was due Caesar and whether taxes were the only thing due Caesar?

Indeed, we are to take the whole of God's word. When Caesar called for a census, people complied. What would Jesus say to that? Do it? I believe so. Could we then add this to giving Caesar what is Caesar's? If so, can we go further? Can we say then, if Caesar requires military service, what would Jesus say to this? Would this be included in giving to Caesar what is Caesar's? Well, if paying taxes is included and if complying with a census is included, then...

In the end, I have to say I do not know. I have to say that because I cannot say definitively. That also means I cannot, seeing the things I see and with the questions I can muster, that it is definitively not possibly so.

I hope this makes sense and I've explained it well.

Now this ties in I think with the issue in this thread because Jesus spoke highly of a Centurion and God sent Peter to a Centurion to save him and his household. On neither occasion did God take the opportunity to address the issue of the military. So I ask myself, why not? If it were wrong, why then did God pass up such perfect opportunities to say so?

I also have to ask, why send Peter to Cornelius' home to have them all saved and yet allow him to remain ignorant and in sin if it is wrong to be in the military. They all of them received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

Now here too I cannot say with any certainty that God did not instruct Peter to tell Cornelius to get out of the military because it was sinful. But should I assume that He did when we do not read it? I don't think so.

What then should I assume? What is the safe assumption? We must make an assumption short of anything absolute. So I look at the whole of the word as we must, and still I find nothing that speaks to this directly. For me then the safe assumption is that serving in the military is not wrong. If it were, I have to conclude God would have addressed it both Jesus with the Centurion and Peter with Cornelius. And He would have done so and recorded it for our benefit as well.

What must follow then is the question: if it is not wrong to serve in the military, does God understand that one serving may be called upon to kill in battle. Again, the safe assumption, if we want to even call it that, is yes, God knows.

I then ask, is there any mystery surrounding this issue in the OT? None. Then I ask if this is important enough an issue for God to have spoken directly to it. I have to believe it is. And did He? No. We do not find God speaking directly to war, fighting and killing in battle and serving in the military in the NT.

In summary then, unless I see God speak to the matter directly, I must assume it has not changed since the OT.

So the issue I raised with the taxes is merely addressing the possibility as to whether that is more evidence to the matter or is it not. And I've explained the process by which I run it through my mind.

Well, this is a long post. Hopefully it makes sense.

But I do agree completely with everything you've said and I think the same.

[RoadWarrior]

Well, did I give you some other impression? ...


Well, this is a long post. Hopefully it makes sense.

But I do agree completely with everything you've said and I think the same.

You did not give any other impression. I just took advantage of your post, without making comment on your position. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Your long post is perfectly fine. I think you did a great job of showing how you think through scripture, attempting to see not only the surface level of what is being said, but also looking more deeply into the teaching.

I have been reading in this thread only for a few days, and find some of the older posts quite painful to read. I realize this is Contro, so people are more likely to be mean to each other, but it is still a Bible Forum, and we all claim to be Christians. So even in Contro, or Bible Chat, or A&E, I believe we should still treat each other with respect. I generally stay out of these areas, because I end up being troubled and find myself awake in the night praying for people. Hmm, come to think of it, that's not such a bad thing.

People in this thread, on both sides of the argument, have valid points. So I am finding it difficult to know how to speak up. I find I want to say something, but realize that the background needed for my statement would take long posts and repeated efforts. So I've stopped short of talking about things which are fundamental to understanding the reality of war in the world.

I appreciate Slug and others like him, who have served in the war zones (and we have several such brave men on the forums). I appreciate what he has shared with us here, of his own personal life experiences. I think his testimony is extremely valuable, but I have seen it disregarded by some, or downplayed as to the true meaning of it.

There are so many different directions one could go - but the bottom line is that we fail to understand God in His totality. (Of course we fail, we are finite and He is infinite. He is creator, we are created.) Because we are like ants seeking a pathway home, we may wander about in different directions. For some it will be a pathway that says we must be peaceful at all costs, and forgive every sin against us. For others it will be a warrior's path, and while we forgive each other, we also know that we have been placed in situations that require us to fight and even sometimes to kill, in order to protect those placed in our custody.

Some of us are warriors on a different level. We conduct warfare through intercessory prayer. No, not that we pray for anyone to be killed, but we do pray for the protection of those who belong to the Kingdom. We also pray for the conversion and deliverance of those held captive by the god of this world. And when we know that God has used the warriors such as Slug to stand between us and the terrorists/criminals/thugs who allegiance is to that god - then we thank our Father for those men. When one or many have died in that struggle to protect us, we pray for their families and loved ones, and pray that we will not forget them and their sacrifice. For those who suffer physical and sometimes lifelong injury, we pray for them as well.

See, it's long, and it's deep. This is not an easy subject!

[Alaska]

If you spent a moment on the ground in Iraq I bet you'd change your politics. Especially when you played soccer with Iraqi children and they're thanking you for freeing them from Saddam.

Experience should not dictate ones doctrine.
Jesus' words do not change because one is Iraq.
The sole reason for any Christian anywhere "should" be to shine the light of Jesus.

[Brother Mark]

ok i can see your point with that - but what i am also saying is that the point he closes the door and says i dont know you is the point of him saying any love or wrath i have for the person now stops, because i dont even know them any more.

so no he doesnt love those who chose to go to hell or he chooses to send there, whatever way you want to look at it.

because how can he love someone he does not know

I really like this post. Thanks for speaking out on this one. I will think on this one. His love stops once he ceases to know them and they are sentenced to hell. Interesting concept. Thanks again.

[Slug1]

Experience should not dictate ones doctrine.
Jesus' words do not change because one is Iraq.
The sole reason for any Christian anywhere "should" be to shine the light of Jesus.

We're talking politics on that part of the post, not anything spiritual. The person's info appears to be from the news or something. Not personal experience and thus inaccurate knowledge based on wherever she got information from. Info gained by being there and seeing what we're doing with her own two eyes will result in accurate information and assessment of just what we're doing to help Iraq and thus a possible change in the political views she now holds on the war in Iraq.

Earlier she said we destroyed the infrastructure. Only key infrastructure that was tactical in nature was taken out and anything that the country needed has since been rebuilt better then it was before.

[Alaska]

I really like this post. Thanks for speaking out on this one. I will think on this one. His love stops once he ceases to know them and they are sentenced to hell. Interesting concept. Thanks again.

See Ezekiel 18:

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

[Brother Mark]

See Ezekiel 18:

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I am well aware of those passages. As I have said often in this thread, God loves people but it doesn't keep him from killing them. Many ask "How can you love and kill" and I respond that God does the same thing. He loves and kills but he doesn't enjoy or get any pleasure from it.

[jewel4Christ]

Does God love folks he sends to hell? Does hell harm them?

John 6, and elsewhere...for God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten son, to be a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

The bible teaches that God loves the WHOLE world. (that includes those muslims that everyone wants to snuff out, lol)

With that said,

We must come to realise that God does NOT force anyone to love Him back...just because He loves all.

He placed before mankind a CHOICE. We are not robots.

He has given mankind a CHOICE to love Him back, and to love our neighbors as OURSELF:
Deuteronomy 30:15-20 [ Verse 19 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ] 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.It was not UNTIL mankind rebelled against the true law of God, which is "love God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as yourself", that God ADDED a stone type of law and gave it to Israel, that would bring about their condemnation. (God gave the law to a rebellios house, remember?)


Originally, the law of God was ONLY based on the great TWO commandments, which contained in them does NOT teach a man to physical war, because no man can kill his neighbor, if he loves him like himself, as the command speaks.

When mankind rejected the true law, condemnation and death occurred, hence, the "curse" as this states.

Through this curse, man chose disobedience to God, and when that disobedience is FULL, in that even AFTER a man learns the true law, and STILL rejects it, he is cut off from God.

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not God still loves them, He is longsuffering, and it is His will that NONE perish, but we are not robots, and He does NOT force His love on anyone, nor can He force anyone to love his/her neighbor as ourself, either.

To understand WHY Jesus quoted from the old covenant, one must know and understand, that from the beginning of the old covenant, God was setting His truths in motion, but, we do not take passages OUT of the old covenant and apply them to US, for christians are not under the old, in any way, shape or form, for NOW we stand in the way of PROMISE, (new covenant), that old only spoke of, by promise, but that God did set in motion from the beginning, YET man rejected it.

I will try to explain some other points in other posts.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

John 6, and elsewhere...for God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten son, to be a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

The bible teaches that God loves the WHOLE world. (that includes those muslims that everyone wants to snuff out, lol)

Agree completely. He loves the whole world. Even in Noah's day he loved it yet, he destroyed it.

Originally, the law of God was ONLY based on the great TWO commandments, which contained in them does NOT teach a man to physical war, because no man can kill his neighbor, if he loves him like himself, as the command speaks.

The command for the death penalty was given before the Law of Moses was given.

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not God still loves them, He is longsuffering, and it is His will that NONE perish, but we are not robots, and He does NOT force His love on anyone, nor can He force anyone to love his/her neighbor as ourself, either.

AMEN! Yet, still he kills them, even though he loves them.

To understand WHY Jesus quoted from the old covenant, one must know and understand, that from the beginning of the old covenant, God was setting His truths in motion, but, we do not take passages OUT of the old covenant and apply them to US, for christians are not under the old, in any way, shape or form, for NOW we stand in the way of PROMISE, (new covenant), that old only spoke of, by promise, but that God did set in motion from the beginning, YET man rejected it.

The only bible Jesus had was the OT. Ditto Paul and all the apostles. The entire NT is built upon the OT.

[jewel4Christ]

You do realize that serving in the military you are serving God whether a person believes that or not... right, you do understand that. God even refers to those that are in the military and police forces as... Ministers of God. So a person who is a soldier or are in a police force are in DIRECT service to God.

This is what God showed me when He gave me the ministry I now run with for God. Here is a quote from what He had me write:

As a matter of fact when He gave me this ministry and I wrote that and then went back to read all the stuff I wrote out that day I was quite surprised when the realization HIT ME of the meaning and what God charged me with and how He prepped me for 21 years to be equiped properly for this ministry.

Picking up the sword for self gain is much different then being handed the sword to remove the one taken up by those for self gain. There are soldiers who don't want to do what they do but do it effectively anyway and you want to know why... cause God put them on a path to be a warrior and to bare the sword so others don't have to. Reminds me of Gideon. There are police that serve cause it's the "right thing" for them to do. Why do you think they feel this way? It's cause God has placed them on a path to be a warrior. Some serve God and or will seek God along their path and realize it was God who gave then that feeling or desire to serve the way they do. They protect against all the ones who picked up a sword for themselves and their own purposes and not for God and His purposes.

There is nothing in romans 13 4 that says anything about "war".

You are adding that thought to the text.

There was once a time, when I thought that God wanted me to strive to keep the physical law, too..all the while God was with me, pricking my heart to His REAL truth...but, because of my ignorance of it, I went around telling others and even teaching others that they needed to strive also.

I would be careful what I teach is the true will of God on this..is all I am going to say.

I have been there, done that.

It is not fun when God finally get's it through your head that what you call His will is not His will at all. He has said that there is a way that SEEMETH right in the minds and hearts of men, but that way leads to death.

Especially, if one rejects it after God HIMself has revealed it to you...this is when it becomes wilful sin...and, I pray we do not hope for that.

peaceandlove,

janet

[RoadWarrior]

...
The bible teaches that God loves the WHOLE world. (that includes those muslims that everyone wants to snuff out, lol)
...
I will try to explain some other points in other posts.

peaceandlove,

janet

Hi Janet,

I appreciate your efforts to show us what you believe and why you believe the way you do. I just want to respond to the sentence above.

Everyone does NOT want to snuff out all the muslims. That is not a true statement. We pray for them to see Jesus, and many do, in dreams and visions and are coming to Christ. Often, they pay for this choice by being kicked out of their familes or killed by a family member. If they escape being killed, they must go into hiding, and try to find a way to escape out of the country that does not allow them to be Christian, seeking to find a place that is safe.

You apparently missed a great deal of what Slug said to you. He went into Iraq, not as an individual with his own money, but as a soldier, with money from the government (our taxes paid into the coffers) and his agenda was not his own, but came through the chain of command.

Women in muslim countries are severely oppressed, and would not have the freedom that you have, to post your thoughts and beliefs on a public forum like this. I would encourage you to read "I Dared Call Him Father" by Bilquis Sheikh. There are other such books, but one would be a good start.

[jewel4Christ]

Brother Mark;1690183]That is partially true. He also uses Godly men to bring his wrath upon the fleshly sinful men as illustrated repeatedly with Israel and the Godly Judges that led them to victory during war.

No doubt. God does not endorse believers killing each other. Though it did occur in Judges.

How can you say that God does not endorse it, and then out of your same mouth say He would be ok with it? That is being doubleminded.

Either He is for it, or He is against it.

There is no in between..with God.

WHERE did it occur in the judges?

Please supply scripture reference, where christians killed other christians and God somehow thought that was ok?

In the last days, kingdom is going to rise against kingdom, and nation against nation, and there are many christians in other nations whom would be fighting in these battles, most likely because they do not understand the truth on this matter, but, if you are a part of that end time battle/armggheddon, that the bible ITself says, satan is behind, through those spirits of frogs, that lead men there. When an evil spirit as a frog, says, "jump", does that mean christians should go about jumping, or do they have a higher power they are to follow and obey?

It was for this very purpose that God raised up Barak, Samson, Gideon to name just a few.

And they are were not carnal and were mentioned in Hebrews, the hall of faith for their faith as it was illustrated in acts of war.

..the one's mentioned in heb. were not involved in murder of God' OWN people. NOR was it war, as we have today..which is the result of PRIDE, and lusts of the flesh.


Tell me, does God send His people out to war, out of the result of lust?


THIS is what is the result of WAR is today, as the bible states.....

War was not even fought for lust in the old covenant!

They were fought to bring about God fulfilling HIS will, in the LAND issue.

It has NOTHING TO DO WITH LUST.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Tell me how God delivered poor David from being what God commanded him to be?

Through growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. When you were saved did you understand everything at once?

Tell me further how God is not guilty? How does God escape the guilt of what He commanded and did? When God gave the enemy into David's hands....

He was a carnal man, at that time...God uses carnal men, in this way, too..romans 13

This is stunning and so not Biblical.

Instead of saying that, why don't you explain why God now commands we beat our spears into pruning hooks? Don't tell me that it is a future thing. Christians have already entered the NEW covenant in THIS age, according to God's word, and it applies to US NOW...even though teachings of men, refuse to submit to it..in mho.

So I teach my daughter to rob banks and I help her do it. After many years now I will begin tomorrow to teach her it is wrong to rob banks and that there is a better way.

First of all, robbing banks is sinful. God never uses anyone to sin.

He does use the carnal nature to work and correct others, whom are sinful, and you can be sure that the usa's punishment is about to begin...also...which it already has, since 9/11.

Now what we have is one carnal nation, taking vengeance on another carnal nation, doing unto them, what they did unto us, as a nation..two wrongs do not EVER make a right.

You honestly don't see the problems do you?

What I don't see is God speaking out of both sides of His mouth, and telling HIS people to serve two masters.

You cannot serve BOTH God and man.

He said, so, I believe it.

peaceandlove,

janet