Jesus says no to war!

[Alaska]

Gen. 4:

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

When a man takes the life of another man, another made in the image of God like himself, he hurts himself with a grievous wound to his soul.
Since the NT has come into effect, the people of God will NEVER again kill another fellow image of God.

Focus on the need of the lost, not on the termination of such a one because of his lost state that compels him to do evil.
A killer is sending many of his victims or targets or hostile combatants or whatever you want to call them to hell because they will have no chance left to be converted to Jesus.

Like it or not, the love toward the aggressor, not to kill him, is what Jesus is calling for as a testimony of what he chooses to show the world through his followers what love does.

[jewel4Christ]

My theology says that the whole Bible is truth, the OT, and the NT together. You cannot separate the two parts and toss out the first, because the first is the root of the second. Without the root, the branches die. Those who would disregard the OT need to look more carefully and see how copiously the old is quoted in the new.

End of soap box rant!

Hi,

So, are you saying that everything in the old is applicable to christians today? If not, which IS the truth, we then need the spirit to discern, and look deeper into the NEW covenant, do we not, to find those answers?

Otherwise, you had better start "sacrificing those bulls and goats, again, for example".


I do NOT pick and choose, I read the old in LIGHT of the NEW.

That way, I can be sure that what is in my heart/mind is OF the Lord, and NOT for some distant past.

Btw, from the beginning, before God gave the law, and ETC to Israel, He showed what HIS real WILL is...it is written in genesis.

Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as YOURSELF. Do you want to kill yourself?

peaceandlove,

janet

[RoadWarrior]

Hi,

So, are you saying that everything in the old is applicable to christians today? If not, which IS the truth, we then need the spirit to discern, and look deeper into the NEW covenant, do we not, to find those answers?

Otherwise, you had better start "sacrificing those bulls and goats, again, for example".


I do NOT pick and choose, I read the old in LIGHT of the NEW.

That way, I can be sure that what is in my heart/mind is OF the Lord, and NOT for some distant past.

Btw, from the beginning, before God gave the law, and ETC to Israel, He showed what HIS real WILL is...it is written in genesis.

Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as YOURSELF. Do you want to kill yourself?

peaceandlove,

janet

Thinly veiled sarcasm, is still sarcasm. No, Janet, I do not want to kill myself, nor do I want to kill others. At the same time, I do not want to be killed, nor to have my loved ones killed. Further, I want to know that people who desire to follow God have the freedom to do so, regardless of what country they live in.

How is it loving my neighbor, if I see that neighbor oppressed and do nothing?

If we read the whole Bible, and allow the Lord to teach us, then we begin to know the heart of God. Jesus did not come into the world to replace the old, but to fulfill it. Notice in Matthew 5, that Jesus uses extreme language to make His point. Adultery is a sin, but Jesus says that even thinking of it in your heart, is the sin.

The primary commandment He told us, is that we love God, but He also said that the second is like it, that we love one another. How can we even begin to be a witness to people outside of the family if we are not able to demonstrate love and kindness toward each other?

Words are only words, unless we demonstrate their truth by the way we live our lives.

[jewel4Christ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
John 6, and elsewhere...for God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten son, to be a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

The bible teaches that God loves the WHOLE world. (that includes those muslims that everyone wants to snuff out, lol)

Agree completely. He loves the whole world. Even in Noah's day he loved it yet, he destroyed it.

Quote:
Originally, the law of God was ONLY based on the great TWO commandments, which contained in them does NOT teach a man to physical war, because no man can kill his neighbor, if he loves him like himself, as the command speaks.
The command for the death penalty was given before the Law of Moses was given.


Quote:
It has NOTHING to do with whether or not God still loves them, He is longsuffering, and it is His will that NONE perish, but we are not robots, and He does NOT force His love on anyone, nor can He force anyone to love his/her neighbor as ourself, either.
AMEN! Yet, still he kills them, even though he loves them.

Quote:
To understand WHY Jesus quoted from the old covenant, one must know and understand, that from the beginning of the old covenant, God was setting His truths in motion, but, we do not take passages OUT of the old covenant and apply them to US, for christians are not under the old, in any way, shape or form, for NOW we stand in the way of PROMISE, (new covenant), that old only spoke of, by promise, but that God did set in motion from the beginning, YET man rejected it.
The only bible Jesus had was the OT. Ditto Paul and all the apostles. The entire NT is built upon the OT.



These have all been answered several times......

God does NOT tell new covenant christians to kill.

He even tells us to NOT EVEN hate..the law is enlarged, not the same.

Until people stop using the new covenant as the same as the old, no one is ever going to understand truth of this.


If you do not hate your enemies, you could NEVER kill them..especially IF you loved them as your own self..as Jesus said.

He whom loves HIMself would NOT kill himself.

mark 12


31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

In this incident, Jesus shows the DIFFERENCE between the old covenant, burnt offerings, ETC, and what was God's intent from DAY ONE.

Those whom want to ADD the carnal LAW in with what came FIRST mistake the truth.

Now, tell me, you whom want to kill your enemy, how do you love him as yourself?

How do you show the love of God to him, by killing him?

Jesus said this to those whom would MIStake His words:

luke 6:27

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

People don't seem to understand that God was not telling christians to follow the law of Moses:

YET, the pharasee's thought that, and so did CARNAL Israel.

..and, Jesus said this:

John 5 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

..here is what JESUS commands in the NEW, concerning how we are to relate to ALL mankind, which btw, was the SAME two commandmets that God had from the beginning, but because CARNAL man could NOT learn spiritual law, God had to tone it down a bit for the carnal nation, because that which was spiritual was not able to be discerned to them in that day..so, God wrought a carnal law, and used a carnal nation to show us that NO man was "just" or "righteouss" by the means of the flesh, nor could ever be.

..and, while they were in the carnal state, God used that, to fulfill the land promise, but which TODAY under a NEW covenant is NOT even applicable to NO flesh, for they did NOT abide by the covenant that gave them that promise of physical land, and NOW, those whom are of faith, in the same way as those whom were of faith in the old, have BETTER promises anyway, and there is NO promise left remaining for the CARNAL crowd.


Anyways, back to math 5:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend F11 thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.




For those of you whom want the way of "an eye for an eye, and revenge on enemies, you need to understand that Jesus has made a new and BETTER way. A way that causes us to love our enemies as OURself..and, no one whom loves his own flesh would kill his own flesh.

Sorry, ya'll are WRONG.

eph. 5:


For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:


peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

ok i notice alot of romans 13 talk

first i will qoute the scripture


1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.



now the defintion of eÍcousiða which is the word translated for powers

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
   1. leave or permission
2. physical and mental power
   1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
   1. universally
      1. authority over mankind
   2. specifically
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
   3. metonymically
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
   4. jurisdiction
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
   5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
   6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
   7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
   8. the sign of regal authority, a crown

now lets assume for this argument we go with the definition of government -- i have my feeling to what "powers" means but we will leave that out for now.

now we have germany during ww2 your a soldier in the SS hitler himself has cleared you to kill anyway you want. you are rounding up people, some people resist, the man in charge above you says --take one of thier children fling it in the air and shoot it like skeet.

now that man has authority over you, if you resist him you resist the ordinence of god -- scripture says so , so you cant break it, if you resist you are doing evil and will damn yourself.

hes not a terror to good works mind you -- scripture says so, and scripture does not lie-- he is a terror to the evil. so that child and everyone being round up are evil clearly. so that baby needs to die cause its evil.

same thing with everyone that was gassed or creamated or tortured or bombed -- all evil

when the scientists were to perform disgusting procedures to test the limits of pain and told to humiliate and all manner of things-- those were all evil people and all those scientists were doing was gods will.

all those german soldiers and scientists were all under authority of people who gave them orders.

so then we went on and put many of those men on trial and found them guilty of war crimes, and all they were doing was gods will and killing evil. so we put them to death wrongly.

government are not a terror to those who are good only evil -- germany was a government -- and therfore it was sent forth by god to kill evil-- everyone that germany killed was evil and deserved it.

same thing with any governing body who killed anyone.

rulers are only a terror to the evil so remember that,
sadamm was a ruler he gassed people -- so he was only gassing evil people, everything he did was to terror the evil.

so he was a good guy following gods will and we allowed him to be put to death wrongly.

[jewel4Christ]

Hi Janet,

I appreciate your efforts to show us what you believe and why you believe the way you do. I just want to respond to the sentence above.

Everyone does NOT want to snuff out all the muslims. That is not a true statement. We pray for them to see Jesus, and many do, in dreams and visions and are coming to Christ. Often, they pay for this choice by being kicked out of their familes or killed by a family member. If they escape being killed, they must go into hiding, and try to find a way to escape out of the country that does not allow them to be Christian, seeking to find a place that is safe.

You apparently missed a great deal of what Slug said to you. He went into Iraq, not as an individual with his own money, but as a soldier, with money from the government (our taxes paid into the coffers) and his agenda was not his own, but came through the chain of command.

Women in muslim countries are severely oppressed, and would not have the freedom that you have, to post your thoughts and beliefs on a public forum like this. I would encourage you to read "I Dared Call Him Father" by Bilquis Sheikh. There are other such books, but one would be a good start.

I would disagree. Freedom does not come from ANYTHING other than through what Jesus has ALREADY accomplished for anyone whom would simply SUBMIT to His love and will.

Jesus NEVER promised any of us PHYSICAL freedom in this world, and in fact, HE PROMISED ALL THOSE WHOM FOLLOW HIM WILL come unto persecution from those whom have that mindset of fighting to save their lives for PHYSICAL things.


Whether muslim, or jew, or gentile, or catholic, or any other "word" you want to fill in the blank with...Jesus NEVER promised us that type of freedom.

Why do christians fight for it? WHO knows, I believe it is from the enemy, and, I must speak it as I see it written.

Jesus layed down His PHYSICAL life for all, and, He never ONCE tried to save His physical life, or sought physical freedoms, such as you have mentioned above....and, NO nation is ANY more righteouss or better than another.

You might want to look at this from Jesus perspective on how He relates the the wicked nations of this world, that false teachings in christianity are EXALTING in hopes to keep this world in it's fallen state, ROLLIN'.

God never gave us that commandment.

A few verses:

acts 14:

And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. 20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe. 21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, F27 they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

God promises christians tribulation, not the false peace that the churches teach we are to seek...and, FIGHT for, through physical men...God is sending those whom think this way strong dilusion, because, you cannot serve TWO masters.

1 cor. 3

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men.


Rev 13:10


He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Does God lie?

peaceandlove,

janet

[RoadWarrior]

Tell me, Janet, how is this manifested in your life? How are you living out your convictions?

[evrgreenjhawk]

Instead of saying that, why don't you explain why God now commands we beat our spears into pruning hooks?
peaceandlove,

janet

As I am still feeding on mild, perhaps you could explain to me the use of "Pruning Hooks"

[jewel4Christ]

Thinly veiled sarcasm, is still sarcasm. No, Janet, I do not want to kill myself, nor do I want to kill others. At the same time, I do not want to be killed, nor to have my loved ones killed. Further, I want to know that people who desire to follow God have the freedom to do so, regardless of what country they live in.

I was asking you a simple question. It was not sarcasm.

Thank you for your answer.

If you do not want to kill yourself, then you should realise that it is not right to kill our neighbor, or even our enemies, as Jesus said. That is all we are trying to say. People are trying to put a stumblingblock in front of those whom would be babes in Christ..in mho...teaching contrary to the truth of God, and as a servant of the Most High, I shall speak up.

So, please do not attempt to judge my motives.

How is it loving my neighbor, if I see that neighbor oppressed and do nothing?

Again, we are NOT promised to be released from physical oppression in this world, and, Jesus even teaches us that.

We are to submit and be content in whatever form we find ourselves in, whether it be from evil governments, etc.

Is it so hard to follow what we have been saying after so many pages?

I ask sincerely, because efficient scripture has been given that totally proves the point here.

IF Jesus told us that we are to fight for this world, instead of finding contentment with how we are in the physical realm of this world it would be different, but on the contrary, He has not taught us that and it is a added doctrine of men. Should we as christians begin to believe man over God/Jesus? I ask sincerely.

If we read the whole Bible, and allow the Lord to teach us, then we begin to know the heart of God. Jesus did not come into the world to replace the old, but to fulfill it. Notice in Matthew 5, that Jesus uses extreme language to make His point. Adultery is a sin, but Jesus says that even thinking of it in your heart, is the sin.

I agree...yet, the old covenant law and the old covenant itself is not our standard to live by, which was my point.

The old covenant law and standard was not a covenant to show christians how to live, but to show christians why it is NOT sufficient, and why people whom walk after the flesh go the way of the flesh.

Only through reading it through the new covenant can you understand that, because it is even written that the veil can only come OFF through Christ...and, many mix the old and the new as IF it is our standard to follow. Jesus warns about following Moses, and demands we follow Him..and, so again, I ask sincerely did He lie?

The primary commandment He told us, is that we love God, but He also said that the second is like it, that we love one another. How can we even begin to be a witness to people outside of the family if we are not able to demonstrate love and kindness toward each other?

I am not saying we are not to show love and kindness, I am saying He never promised ANY of HIS children in this age that we are to fight for PHYSICAL things.

In fact, He told us the opposite, so, do not distort what I have said.

We show others the true love of God by preaching the gospel, and by planting HIS words in their hearts. If we do not fail to plant HIS words, but plant the words of Moses, for example, we have misled someone.

Not my words, HIS.

Words are only words, unless we demonstrate their truth by the way we live our lives.

Exactly. Live our lives the way of Christ, whom did not ONE time, fight to maintain ANY PHYSICAL thing, not even HIS physical life.

God can take care of His own, HE does not need us to kill our enemies to take care of them.

In fact, He wants all His children to know the same truths, and among that, is the truth that fighting for this world and what it offers in the physical sense is against the new covenant.

I will stand for THAT truth...and, this is a message board, where hopefully we are free to express our faith, and if not, I will be soon leaving...because I will not even take part in a message board that would dictate to me not a right to do so.

Truth is not offensive, if one is truly seeking it. It only becomes offensive if you have some error in your understanding, and you refuse to submit to it.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Tell me, Janet, how is this manifested in your life? How are you living out your convictions?

First of all, I must speak the truth in love.

Secondly, if it causes men to not like me, He has already told me that would come about.

Thirdly, if I choose to hide what He has shown me, the blood of my brethren would be on my hands.

Fourthly, the true agape, type of love will teach individually over time, and God is the giver of increase, all I can do is witness it.

Fifthly, on a physical basis, I do not try to save my life.

Sixthly, I am prepared to die for my Lord....whom He has said would come about, because men will think they do God service.

and, seven....I love all my enemies, and loving them causes me to share Jesus words with them, and not to hinder them receiving it by blowing them up...with bombs, or guns.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

As I am still feeding on mild, perhaps you could explain to me the use of "Pruning Hooks"

Hi,

In the physical application, it would mean to prune, a given plant, so that it can grow..in a physical way...

In the spiritual application, the same, accept it should be stated that I can only sow seed, so that is my aim. I aim to help my brothers and sisters to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ, by sowing seed...of what He has shown me.

Yet, He does use us to prepare the hearts of men to receive it...for when we show our spiritual pruning hook to men, true love in a heart of man, cannot do anything else but be pricked by it.

This is just one "truth"...we are speaking about in this thread.

ALL of us...have some parts, but none of us have it all, in mho...and, I am sure there are things you understand, that I am not even close to understanding yet....

peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

Tell me, Janet, how is this manifested in your life? How are you living out your convictions?

watch those type of questions because someone could ask you the same.

i will answer this question because i agree with everything janet has said here.

3 weeks ago i gave every penny i had to feed the homeless -- except the 14 dollars i put in my gas tank to get back to a home that i dont own.

no life savings nothing to sell except the truck and computer i was given so they arent even really mine.

god will provide for me, so i give no thought to such things

do i have medical -- no --god will take care of me

am i married -- no -- if you are married you have made a choice to care for things of the world -- i havent.

now as paul would say (i speak as a man) in all those things above do i think they somehow make me a good person -- nope


so now roadwarrior -- how are you living out your convictions ?

[Brother Mark]

Gen. 4:

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

When a man takes the life of another man, another made in the image of God like himself, he hurts himself with a grievous wound to his soul.
Since the NT has come into effect, the people of God will NEVER again kill another fellow image of God.

Focus on the need of the lost, not on the termination of such a one because of his lost state that compels him to do evil.
A killer is sending many of his victims or targets or hostile combatants or whatever you want to call them to hell because they will have no chance left to be converted to Jesus.

Like it or not, the love toward the aggressor, not to kill him, is what Jesus is calling for as a testimony of what he chooses to show the world through his followers what love does.

Romans 13 says to shed his blood. That's NT. Even so, if you advocate complete forgiveness, then there can be no prison or any other form of punishment. Every man has a chance to come to God. So many pacifist here say "God can protect me if he desires" yet, they say others can be killed before their time. Anyway, both the NT and OT give government not just the right, but the responsibility to protect their citizens and to use the death penalty.

[jewel4Christ]

Thanks Few,

I wanted to comment on this:

in all those things above do i think they somehow make me a good person -- nope

Exactly.

NONE of us can be righteouss of ourselves...it only comes by the free gift, HE freely imputes to us...as He covers our sins, overlooks our wickedness, and those whom are promoting that a nation can somehow be considered better or more righteouss in the eyes of God, without faith/ free imputation, are missing most of the whole gospel message.

It is the spirit of pride, that the enemy is sowing not only in the world, but through apostacy, (the worldly ways entering the church), now even amongst us brethren.

As our brothers keeper, we are supposed to speak the truth in love..and, it is ultimately up to each individual, to search and seek these things out for themselves to see if they be so. He said, "work out your own salvation" with fear and trembling....He does not allow anyone to do it for us.


We shall all individually stand before Him someday, and be judged individually for what we allowed our ownselves to believe.

We will have no one to blame.

I want my enemies to understand the love of God, not the misappled, type the world offers.

"come out of her My people"


peaceandlove,

janet

[mcgyver]

ok i notice alot of romans 13 talk

first i will qoute the scripture


1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.



now the defintion of eÍcousiða which is the word translated for powers

1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
   
   1. leave or permission
   
   
2. physical and mental power
   
   1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
   
   
3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
   
   1. universally
      
      1. authority over mankind
      
      
   2. specifically
      
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
      
      
   3. metonymically
      
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
      
      
   4. jurisdiction
      
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
      
      
   5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
   6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
   7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
      
      
   8. the sign of regal authority, a crown
   
   

now lets assume for this argument we go with the definition of government -- i have my feeling to what "powers" means but we will leave that out for now.

now we have germany during ww2 your a soldier in the SS hitler himself has cleared you to kill anyway you want. you are rounding up people, some people resist, the man in charge above you says --take one of thier children fling it in the air and shoot it like skeet.

now that man has authority over you, if you resist him you resist the ordinence of god -- scripture says so , so you cant break it, if you resist you are doing evil and will damn yourself.

hes not a terror to good works mind you -- scripture says so, and scripture does not lie-- he is a terror to the evil. so that child and everyone being round up are evil clearly. so that baby needs to die cause its evil.

same thing with everyone that was gassed or creamated or tortured or bombed -- all evil

when the scientists were to perform disgusting procedures to test the limits of pain and told to humiliate and all manner of things-- those were all evil people and all those scientists were doing was gods will.

all those german soldiers and scientists were all under authority of people who gave them orders.

so then we went on and put many of those men on trial and found them guilty of war crimes, and all they were doing was gods will and killing evil. so we put them to death wrongly.

government are not a terror to those who are good only evil -- germany was a government -- and therfore it was sent forth by god to kill evil-- everyone that germany killed was evil and deserved it.

same thing with any governing body who killed anyone.

rulers are only a terror to the evil so remember that,
sadamm was a ruler he gassed people -- so he was only gassing evil people, everything he did was to terror the evil.

so he was a good guy following gods will and we allowed him to be put to death wrongly.

The most magnificent example of Eisegesis I've seen in a long time

Though I know you meant it tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot of that going on in this thread

Let me give you an example (Matt 5):

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Hmmmm....."resist not evil"...if we are going to have a consistency of application of this passage as used in this thread, we have all got to keep our mouths shut and smile like simpletons BECAUSE:

If we say that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life...the ONLY way to get to God"...We are resisting evil.

If we take a stand against abortion...we are resisting evil.

If we tell our children not to have s*x before marriage (when everyone else says it's OK)...we are resisting evil.

If we take the stand that marriage is only between a man and a woman...we are resisting evil.

I mean, that's what He said, right? Clear as day, in black and white, correct?

After decades of study, I am still amazed that people are simply willing to overlook the whole counsel of God...take a passage to "confirm their stance...no matter if it results in a condition of glaring absurdity