Jesus says no to war!

[fewarechosen]

The most magnificent example of Eisegesis I've seen in a long time

Though I know you meant it tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot of that going on in this thread

Let me give you an example (Matt 5):

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Hmmmm....."resist not evil"...if we are going to have a consistency of application of this passage as used in this thread, we have all got to keep our mouths shut and smile like simpletons BECAUSE:

If we say that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life...the ONLY way to get to God"...We are resisting evil.

If we take a stand against abortion...we are resisting evil.

If we tell our children not to have s*x before marriage (when everyone else says it's OK)...we are resisting evil.

If we take the stand that marriage is only between a man and a woman...we are resisting evil.

I mean, that's what He said, right? Clear as day, in black and white, correct?

After decades of study, I am still amazed that people are simply willing to overlook the whole counsel of God...take a passage to "confirm their stance...no matter if it results in a condition of glaring absurdity

ok hopefully you didnt take me serious but i suppose you did --- my point was then where do you draw the line --- your government authority tells you to do evil, when is ok to draw the line and when is not too ?

if you dont draw a line then you have to completely go with it.

either you are going by gods law or you are going by mans -- cant have both

[redeemedbyhim]

The most magnificent example of Eisegesis I've seen in a long time

Though I know you meant it tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot of that going on in this thread

Let me give you an example (Matt 5):

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Hmmmm....."resist not evil"...if we are going to have a consistency of application of this passage as used in this thread, we have all got to keep our mouths shut and smile like simpletons BECAUSE:

If we say that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life...the ONLY way to get to God"...We are resisting evil.

If we take a stand against abortion...we are resisting evil.

If we tell our children not to have s*x before marriage (when everyone else says it's OK)...we are resisting evil.

If we take the stand that marriage is only between a man and a woman...we are resisting evil.

I mean, that's what He said, right? Clear as day, in black and white, correct?

After decades of study, I am still amazed that people are simply willing to overlook the whole counsel of God...take a passage to "confirm their stance...no matter if it results in a condition of glaring absurdity

Just popped in to say, oh goodness, don't give up!!
And thanks for this post....I was about to go find a plow and turn it into a hook...

[mcgyver]

ok hopefully you didnt take me serious but i suppose you did --- my point was then where do you draw the line --- your government authority tells you to do evil, when is ok to draw the line and when is not too ?

if you dont draw a line then you have to completely go with it.

either you are going by gods law or you are going by mans -- cant have both

No, I didn't take you seriously simply making a counterpoint...

I agree that a line is drawn...for the rest, we can refer to the life of Daniel, correct?

[Brother Mark]

ok hopefully you didnt take me serious but i suppose you did --- my point was then where do you draw the line --- your government authority tells you to do evil, when is ok to draw the line and when is not too ?

if you dont draw a line then you have to completely go with it.

either you are going by gods law or you are going by mans -- cant have both

What people are ignoring though is that God actually commands people to kill. That is part of the whole counsel of God. He has done it in the past, the present and will do it in the future.

When Jesus sets up a kingdom here, he will do so with a rod of iron. You think he will just let all kinds of evil propagate with no resistance from Himself? Nope. He will resist and with a rod of iron. For now, that job falls to current governments. Then, it will fall on his government.

[Brother Mark]

The most magnificent example of Eisegesis I've seen in a long time

Though I know you meant it tongue-in-cheek, there is a lot of that going on in this thread

Let me give you an example (Matt 5):

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Hmmmm....."resist not evil"...if we are going to have a consistency of application of this passage as used in this thread, we have all got to keep our mouths shut and smile like simpletons BECAUSE:

If we say that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life...the ONLY way to get to God"...We are resisting evil.

If we take a stand against abortion...we are resisting evil.

If we tell our children not to have s*x before marriage (when everyone else says it's OK)...we are resisting evil.

If we take the stand that marriage is only between a man and a woman...we are resisting evil.

I mean, that's what He said, right? Clear as day, in black and white, correct?

After decades of study, I am still amazed that people are simply willing to overlook the whole counsel of God...take a passage to "confirm their stance...no matter if it results in a condition of glaring absurdity

Indeed. Don't give up yet. Like you, I am amazed. Some will simply stand by and watch while those under their authority are raped and murdered. Yet, if we can't resist evil, we can't pray against the action, we can't use our physical bodies to stop it, we can't get in the way of a evil in any form or fashion for that is resisting it. And as you have pointed out, it is absurd to think that is what Jesus is speaking about. Rather, he is teaching the individual to turn the other cheek. But for those in authority, they are meant to protect.

[fewarechosen]

No, I didn't take you seriously simply making a counterpoint...

I agree that a line is drawn...for the rest, we can refer to the life of Daniel, correct?

i didnt see it as a counterpoint you made the same point i was making if you take one thing out of context look what happens.

there comes a point where if crossed you disobey the government -- do you agree ?

[fewarechosen]

Indeed. Don't give up yet. Like you, I am amazed. Some will simply stand by and watch while those under their authority are raped and murdered. Yet, if we can't resist evil, we can't pray against the action, we can't use our physical bodies to stop it, we can't get in the way of a evil in any form or fashion for that is resisting it. And as you have pointed out, it is absurd to think that is what Jesus is speaking about. Rather, he is teaching the individual to turn the other cheek. But for those in authority, they are meant to protect.

did christ get in the way of evil ?

and did he use a earthly weapon to do it ?

just to make the point that you dont have to use a weapon to get in the way of evil

he just cast demons out -- worry more about getting to the point where you can cast demons out -- and not so much about getting to the point where you trust in a earthly weapon.

[Brother Mark]

did christ get in the way of evil ?

and did he use a earthly weapon to do it ?

just to make the point that you dont have to use a weapon to get in the way of evil

he just cast demons out -- worry more about getting to the point where you can cast demons out -- and not so much about getting to the point where you trust in a earthly weapon.

We can use both. Jesus walked on the water too, but most of the time he took a boat. He certainly didn't tell David not to use a weapon against Goliath.

[evrgreenjhawk]

Hi,

In the physical application, it would mean to prune, a given plant, so that it can grow..in a physical way...

In the spiritual application, the same, accept it should be stated that I can only sow seed, so that is my aim. I aim to help my brothers and sisters to grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ, by sowing seed...of what He has shown me.

peaceandlove,

janet

Maybe to remove the weeds that may choke out the crop from the seeds you sow...? Do you only sow the seeds or also tend and harvest the crop?

[mcgyver]

Indeed. Don't give up yet. Like you, I am amazed. Some will simply stand by and watch while those under their authority are raped and murdered. Yet, if we can't resist evil, we can't pray against the action, we can't use our physical bodies to stop it, we can't get in the way of a evil in any form or fashion for that is resisting it. And as you have pointed out, it is absurd to think that is what Jesus is speaking about. Rather, he is teaching the individual to turn the other cheek. But for those in authority, they are meant to protect.

Not give up????

But doesn't Matt 5:25 say: "Agree with thine adversary quickly..."????

OK, Hopefully I've made my point now

A word of personal testimony here: I bowed my knee at the foot of the Cross as a senior NCO with one of the most "elite" outfits in the US Army. I struggled with the whole Christian/soldier thing quite fervently...and Matthew 5 was a scripture that I struggled with...

So...I got hold of a Greek NT, a lexicon, and a book of synonyms (Greek) of the NT. I then started studying the context of the passage in light of 1st century Jewish culture...I mean really digging deep. Crossing with other passages, looking for answers.

Believe me, I wanted to obey God, and if that meant that being a soldier was wrong, I was ready to throw my whole career down the tubes.

As I studied though, I found that the way we were interpreting Jesus' words from a 20th century perspective was not in the context nor the meaning of Jesus' intent...

WOW!!!!!

Two decades later, as one in full time ministry; that has been reinforced.

Brethren, we need to be very careful in declaring doctrine...especially in "rightly dividing" the Word of God.

[jewel4Christ]

What people are ignoring though is that God actually commands people to kill. That is part of the whole counsel of God. He has done it in the past, the present and will do it in the future.

When Jesus sets up a kingdom here, he will do so with a rod of iron. You think he will just let all kinds of evil propagate with no resistance from Himself? Nope. He will resist and with a rod of iron. For now, that job falls to current governments. Then, it will fall on his government.

Mark,

With all due respect, no one has ignored anything, you and others just don't seemingly like the answers we have supplied.

God does USE men through HUMAN governments to supply a way for not only His wrath to come about, but also for some type of non chaos to be set in place in this world.

The thing those like yourself and those like myself disagree on is that those human governments are NOT God's governement, and as christians, we are to follow HIS, not mans..on SPIRITUAL issues.

Agape love is a spiritual issue. It teaches us to deny ALL ungodliness, and to love as HE LOVES.

He loves His enemies, for He even laid down His life and died for them...(US)

With that said, He never killed one of HIS OWN, or sends us out to do that.

Do you not realise that in wars today, christians are killed all over the world?

Have you ever read the account of the story of "Sodom" where God said He would not work His wrath in that city IF EVEN ONE OF HIS was present?

Have you ever considered that maybe YOU ARE WRONG? ..and, that maybe He really cannot be tempted with evil, so He uses satan as that tool?

Human governments have satan as their god..these things are written..for OUR correction.

To say that any government is NOT of this world, is bogus theology, and makes God's kingdom somewhat LESS to desire...for He has rescued us out of it, (the world), and out of the darkness that man's rule leads to.

peaceandlove,

janet

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

Mark,

With all due respect, no one has ignored anything, you and others just don't seemingly like the answers we have supplied.

God does USE men through HUMAN governments to supply a way for not only His wrath to come about, but also for some type of non chaos to be set in place in this world.

The thing those like yourself and those like myself disagree on is that those human governments are NOT God's governement, and as christians, we are to follow HIS, not mans..on SPIRITUAL issues.

Agape love is a spiritual issue. It teaches us to deny ALL ungodliness, and to love as HE LOVES.

He loves His enemies, for He even laid down His life and died for them...(US)

With that said, He never killed one of HIS OWN, or sends us out to do that.

Do you not realise that in wars today, christians are killed all over the world?

Have you ever read the account of the story of "Sodom" where God said He would not work His wrath in that city IF EVEN ONE OF HIS was present?

Have you ever considered that maybe YOU ARE WRONG? ..and, that maybe He really cannot be tempted with evil, so He uses satan as that tool?

Human governments have satan as their god..these things are written..for OUR correction.

To say that any government is NOT of this world, is bogus theology, and makes God's kingdom somewhat LESS to desire...for He has rescued us out of it, (the world), and out of the darkness that man's rule leads to.

Here's the thing Janet... Does God command folks to sin? God commanded people to kill. If killing is a sin, then God commanded people to sin. If killing is not a sin, then he didn't.

Either God commands folks to sin and they are just in a heap of trouble because if they disobey him, they have rebelled, and thereby sinned. If they obey him, they have killed and therefor sinned. So God has put them in a box and that is not God.

So, did God command Saul to sin? Or Samson? No! So killing is not wrong. Murder is.

[jewel4Christ]

Indeed. Don't give up yet. Like you, I am amazed. Some will simply stand by and watch while those under their authority are raped and murdered. Yet, if we can't resist evil, we can't pray against the action, we can't use our physical bodies to stop it, we can't get in the way of a evil in any form or fashion for that is resisting it. And as you have pointed out, it is absurd to think that is what Jesus is speaking about. Rather, he is teaching the individual to turn the other cheek. But for those in authority, they are meant to protect.

Why not just hand them over to the authorities and let them deal with them..that is their job.

Are we so without faith that we do not think that God can keep us from the evil one, long enough to hand them over?

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Here's the thing Janet... Does God command folks to sin? God commanded people to kill. If killing is a sin, then God commanded people to sin. If killing is not a sin, then he didn't.

Either God commands folks to sin and they are just in a heap of trouble because if they disobey him, they have rebelled, and thereby sinned. If they obey him, they have killed and therefor sinned. So God has put them in a box and that is not God.

So, did God command Saul to sin? Or Samson? No! So killing is not wrong. Murder is.

LOL, here's the thing...the old covenant was a covenant of an eye for an eye, and etc...for a good reason. You keep missing that point.

We are not under that covenant, and God is showing us a better way.

Those whom don't think that the new is better, and has mercy added, needs to understand that those whom were under the old died WITHOUT mercy, and we are not going to go into that discussion again, I hope.

The whole point was to show us how the old was INSUFFICIENT to lead those whom are OF the spirit.

This is the basics of christianity, the old covenant was a covenant of CONDEMNATION...

Do not put it back on God's people....in any way, shape or form.

Those of faith walked in it, while they lived, but, looked forward to the better way, remember, not receiving it in THEIR LIFETIMES...they looked forward to a better day.

God used them, too...and, knew why.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Maybe to remove the weeds that may choke out the crop from the seeds you sow...? Do you only sow the seeds or also tend and harvest the crop?

I do nothing but sow the seeds, God gives the increase...and, He only gives it, when someone is willing to accept it, He does not force His love or ways on anyone.

peaceandlove,

janet