Jesus says no to war!

[Slug1]

That has already been covered. The Church is not to start wars. No one is arguing that the church needs to start a war anywhere. But the New Testament letters were not written to governments. It was written to the church. What the letters say and make clear about the government is that it wields a sword for a purpose.

Also to add... no where does the New Testament warn or instruct believers to not participate in working with the government. Nor does the New Testament instruct those working for the government to get out of that work.

Amen, I covered all that in my study

[ProjectPeter]

now i dont know if your serious or your just gonna blow by this post and not read it, so i will assume your going to read it.

now the military here in the usa is mostly people who really love their country and dont want to see evil befall them or their countryman. so somehow dont think i am cheering against them, just because i am saying the end of war is death.

now i am not of this world- as you would say im from- make believe - land. make believe land doesnt have borders, its everyone on the whole earth.

now i see other peoples and nations all doing the same thing, they too love their countryman and their families, some of these people have very ignorant members in their family and i feel even more for them, they cause strife. then i become angry with them and want to pluck them up and destroy them, but then my lord says -- are you not ignorant and evil ? shall i pluck you up ? or do you wish that i forgive you ? then i say lord i wish for you to forgive me , to which he replies then forgive your neighbor and help him.

so now since i live in make believe land i have a different perspective than many. the same way i see the good in the nations is how i can see the ungodly. it happens in all of them not one just a few or most but all, now that to me was a hard truth to swallow, to which i find many will never press it to their lips let alone swallow it.

now do i want to start a list of what is ungodly -- i surely would , but then some would think i am bashing. so i will refrain.

so i live in make believe land for that is where my lord chose to place me -- i thank him for that , because nothing i do is right and he chose me out of this world for some reason and gave me something better -- he gave me la la land. and i do not wish to be cast out.

Do you not believe that God still judges nations? Do you not believe that there are things that must be set in place for the day of the Lord? Do you honestly believe that Sadaam was anything short of reprobate?

I remember earlier in the thread someone saying... it would have been better to witness to him that put him to death... but then reality check. If you'd of "witnessed" to him... he'd of killed you because he already knew about Christ and rejected Him outright. Then he'd still be out there killing these innocent folks that everyone is going on about getting killed in the war.

I love it when folks bring out the stats too. There have been a gazillion citizens killed in this war!!!! Problem is.... most of that is from the bombs their own kind use to cause problems and the hatred the religious groups have for each other. It is not at the hand of the military. YES BUT!!!! IF the military wasn't there then they wouldn't be doing that!!!! Perhaps not... but Sadaam and his boys along with his many henchmen would be doing so and in large numbers.

Going into Iraq... it liberated a people that was oppressed in ways we can't even fathom living in the comfort of the western world. It's too bad we weren't going into Sudan and clearing up that mess too. We can go on about the various motives and whatnot and I'll not argue all that. None of us really know anyway. But I rejoice that they've been freed from that sort of oppression. Even if it just for a season... because in that season there have been many Islamic folk introduced to Jesus Christ who now have their names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life. War is nasty. But war is at times needed. There is a time for peace and would that it be ALL of the time. But that time comes one day... not yet. For now... there is a time for war. People die in war. That's the cost of war.

[ProjectPeter]

Amen, I covered all that in my study

Yeah... think we're now on a threepeat!

[evrgreenjhawk]

It is not your fault JayHawk. You asked some good questions, but it was in the middle of a volatile situation.

Some of the forums here are more risky than others, and that is sort of by design. The mods work at keeping the hot stuff in certain areas, so that other places can be safe. New in Christ is an example of a place that the administration of this board decided needs to be a safe place.

Since there are people who want to talk about controversial subjects, the admins created Contro - pretty wise actually.

I hope this doesn't turn you sour on the board as a whole. I can see that you are fairly new.

Feel free to try your questions in another forum.

Thanks for the encouragement. Perhaps unfortunate, but I was kinda drug here to this forum as this thread was moved from bible chat after about 40 pages of which I had followed from the beginning.

My only issue is that those against war leave me with the impression, (if not outright stated) that to wage war is a sin, to participate in war is knowingly to kill innocents, knowingly murder.

Personally I do have issues with participating in wars abroad when there is so much on our own land that needs tending to. I do not pretend to know, nor do I believe it is possible to obtain the info needed to fully know, the reasons we should or should not participate. We are given the right to vote, and by doing so I feel should submit to that authority, right or wrong with our believes. I do know that (and pray it never happens) that should war come to our own land, I would be fully in defense of our country and homeland in what ever capacity I may be of use. I personally feel this is the same our soldiers are doing now, for me, for us and I thank them.

Peace

[fewarechosen]

Do you not believe that God still judges nations? Do you not believe that there are things that must be set in place for the day of the Lord? Do you honestly believe that Sadaam was anything short of reprobate?

I remember earlier in the thread someone saying... it would have been better to witness to him that put him to death... but then reality check. If you'd of "witnessed" to him... he'd of killed you because he already knew about Christ and rejected Him outright. Then he'd still be out there killing these innocent folks that everyone is going on about getting killed in the war.

I love it when folks bring out the stats too. There have been a gazillion citizens killed in this war!!!! Problem is.... most of that is from the bombs their own kind use to cause problems and the hatred the religious groups have for each other. It is not at the hand of the military. YES BUT!!!! IF the military wasn't there then they wouldn't be doing that!!!! Perhaps not... but Sadaam and his boys along with his many henchmen would be doing so and in large numbers.

Going into Iraq... it liberated a people that was oppressed in ways we can't even fathom living in the comfort of the western world. It's too bad we weren't going into Sudan and clearing up that mess too. We can go on about the various motives and whatnot and I'll not argue all that. None of us really know anyway. But I rejoice that they've been freed from that sort of oppression. Even if it just for a season... because in that season there have been many Islamic folk introduced to Jesus Christ who now have their names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life. War is nasty. But war is at times needed. There is a time for peace and would that it be ALL of the time. But that time comes one day... not yet. For now... there is a time for war. People die in war. That's the cost of war.

peter im not your enemy man, i make posts and you dont address any points i bring up, you just bring up all your own and ask the questions you want to ask, so i cant really have a debate with you, its like other people see it too, so if you want to think somehow im dodging your questions or something, think again

i see things like this in your post

Sure you disagree. You haven't even a clue what the passage and chapter is about

talking to someone other than me, now its like i dont hold a grudge, i may get upset or something but hey who doesnt-- but if you dont answer anyones points and want to just talk down to them, them whats the point of the debate ?

so i figure you probably feel it the same way, so im trying to just adress how i feel about the situation, you want me to answer allllll your questions but even in your last post to me you did not address one point i brought up in the post you quoted.

so peace peter --and if i wronged you i apologize , but i feel we have much to learn from eachother.

[RoadWarrior]

Hi roadwarrior,

I would like to ask a question..if I may.

According to how you interpret the end times, etc..what would be the purpose of holding the "wolf at bay"?

Thanks..

peaceandlove,

janet

Not all tribulation is end times. Horrible things have happened many times in the world, and the end has not come. Attilla the Hun, Genghis Khan, Hitler - just a few examples of men doing the work of Satan, wiping out great swaths of humans to further their own ambitions. You could even put Columbus and the Spanish invaders on this list, for what they did to the Americas. Yet the End Times has not arrived. Just because a dreadful enemy is now slavering at the door of America and desires to devour us, does not mean we are at the End Times. But it well could mean the end of America as we know it.

This is a time that calls for Americans to humble themselves and pray, and call on the Lord. And it calls for courage and strength, as Joshua was commanded 3 times - "Be strong and have good courage."

And it is a time such as the days when Hitler was bombing London. Rees Howells and his staff could hear the bombers pass overhead on their way to London, and they would go into their chapel and pray. American Christians today need to be doing less in-fighting and more fighting the real enemy.

You have well said that our weapons are not carnal. I would strongly encourage you to use the weapons that you do have, and to fight with all your strength and courage against the enemy that seeks to devour you, your loved ones and your very home.

Did you see Slug's comment about the palpable darkness in Fallujah when he arrived there in 2003? That darkness desires to overtake all of America.

I do not seek to keep Jesus from returning - that is not the wolf.

[RoadWarrior]

Thanks for the encouragement. Perhaps unfortunate, but I was kinda drug here to this forum as this thread was moved from bible chat after about 40 pages of which I had followed from the beginning.

My only issue is that those against war leave me with the impression, (if not outright stated) that to wage war is a sin, to participate in war is knowingly to kill innocents, knowingly murder.

Personally I do have issues with participating in wars abroad when there is so much on our own land that needs tending to. I do not pretend to know, nor do I believe it is possible to obtain the info needed to fully know, the reasons we should or should not participate. We are given the right to vote, and by doing so I feel should submit to that authority, right or wrong with our believes. I do know that (and pray it never happens) that should war come to our own land, I would be fully in defense of our country and homeland in what ever capacity I may be of use. I personally feel this is the same our soldiers are doing now, for me, for us and I thank them.

Peace

Keep reading the daily newspaper, you will see that war come to our own land if we are not able to stop the enemy in other lands. Today's headlines say that Al Quaida is growing.

Do you not realize that the enemy has already attacked our land? What do you think happened on 9/11?

I can see why this thread got moved from Bible Chat to Contro!

Ah well. There is food here for good discussion, but it does require that people open their eyes to the truth.

Without wisdom, people mis-apply scripture to their own detriment, and ultimately to their own destruction.

I disagree that soldiers are necessarily going out to knowingly kill innocents and to murder. While this does happen, and hits the headlines, the great majority of our military are not partaking in that mob mentality. There are many Christians in the military who will, like Slug mentioned, shoot to kill as necessary when in a battle. Horrible things happen in wars, this is true.

If a person has a strong personal conviction about not participating in war, then they need to follow that - it is between them and God. But I strongly believe that God raises up men like Th1Bill, Slug1, Claviculanox, ProjectPeter, Amazzin, etc. to be the shield between me and the wolf. I am very grateful to them, and I pray earnestly that they will be given peace and comfort and healing from their wounds. I pray that they will know that they are appreciated by Americans. I pray that they will not think we consider them as murderers, but as soldiers sent by God to protect the weak and vulnerable.

Without the men of the past who have defended our right to be Christians, we would not have the freedom today to write such things as we say every day on this board.

Without the men of today who fight for that same freedom, we will lose what we have and be forced to wear headscarves and burkas, and be killed for having a Bible in the house.

[ProjectPeter]

peter im not your enemy man, i make posts and you dont address any points i bring up, you just bring up all your own and ask the questions you want to ask, so i cant really have a debate with you, its like other people see it too, so if you want to think somehow im dodging your questions or something, think again

i see things like this in your post

Sure you disagree. You haven't even a clue what the passage and chapter is about

talking to someone other than me, now its like i dont hold a grudge, i may get upset or something but hey who doesnt-- but if you dont answer anyones points and want to just talk down to them, them whats the point of the debate ?

so i figure you probably feel it the same way, so im trying to just adress how i feel about the situation, you want me to answer allllll your questions but even in your last post to me you did not address one point i brought up in the post you quoted.

so peace peter --and if i wronged you i apologize , but i feel we have much to learn from eachother.

You aren't following the thread if that's your thinking. I addressed every one of those passages that Jewell posted. I showed the context of all of the of all of the passages and the passages quoted had nothing at all to do with war. You guys are doing that and simple fact... one cannot debate out of context passages because with wrong context... there is NOTHING that can be said. Every point that you guys have made has been answered by someone. So no clue why that complaint is even out there.

And peace back at you... even when you're just plain wrong.

[RoadWarrior]

you notice all you keep saying is im chopping up scripture , your making accusations and no points -- look at this post -- its all personal, nothing to do with scripture.


you say oh there is a time for war scripture says it -- yet take no time to discern it


when this country bombs another - do you see thier little children burned up and limbless ? so its ok that their kids are burnt up , but its not good if ours are ?

please explain how this works out why is ok for their kids to be blown up ?

There is nothing good about little children and their mothers being in harms way - but do not doubt this - those women and children were already in harms way, already being killed and imprisoned and tortured as well as their fathers, long before America took action in Iraq. There are stories that are not well read by Americans, because it happened far away and we don't "relate" to it. But if you truly seek to know, you can find out, what it was like for the citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq before the war on terror.

The U.S. has handled the war poorly, we have been ill-prepared and have lacked the will to fight well. Our defense system was weakened from the time of the Clinton administration. So when we needed the military, they had to scramble.

The U.S. had very poor "intelligence" about the true nature of the enemy. Americans in general still have a poor understanding of what we really are up against. It is so completely different from our frame of reference, that we just glaze over when the media tries to tell us about it. Those shows get low ratings, so the media goes back to talking about whether Obama is a Muslim, and whether Hilary knows how to bake cookies.

We need to get informed, folks.

[fewarechosen]

You aren't following the thread if that's your thinking. I addressed every one of those passages that Jewell posted. I showed the context of all of the of all of the passages and the passages quoted had nothing at all to do with war. You guys are doing that and simple fact... one cannot debate out of context passages because with wrong context... there is NOTHING that can be said. Every point that you guys have made has been answered by someone. So no clue why that complaint is even out there.

And peace back at you... even when you're just plain wrong.

hmm interesting feelings,

look at how you say peace

you say peace then even after -- you want to get some sort of little jab in --- do you think thats not obvious ?
then you even add a smug little wink , very telling.

do you think the lord does not see that ?

do you think that is his version of compassion and longsuffering ?

[mcgyver]

You know...

If someone would just be "straight up" and say "I'm a pacifist because of my personal convictions", or "God has led be to follow the path of absolute peace", or "The Holy Spirit has led me to renounce all violence"...I think I'd reach through the computer screen just to give 'em a big hug and say "God Bless You!!!".

Instead, what I see is a "cut and paste mosaic" of selected scripture (mostly out of context) used to tell everyone else that they're wrong.

I am amazed that there is such a rejection of the whole counsel of God...such a lack of logical and consistent application of scripture! My heavens...does not 2 Tim 3:16 mean anything? Is God not sovereign still?

One of the most vocal proponents of non-violence in a post (concerning a rape) said on one hand (summation here) that absolute non-violence was the order of the day...yet several post later says turn the rapist over to the authorities and let them deal with him...

I guess violence by proxy on one's behalf is OK...as long as we don't "soil" our hands in the process.

Am I the only one who is seeing a contradiction in logic and application here?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry...just heartbroken.

As far as war...it is horrible. People die. I wish there were no such thing as war (and I look forward to the day there is no more war), and I speak from first-hand experience. I have memories that I will carry for the rest of my life...and although I am forgiven and the burden lifted through Christ, yet I still see faces and relive events in my dreams.

But you know what? I have come to understand that even as God has always used imperfect people to accomplish His perfect plan, so also does he use war and the warrior.

Got news for ya...The war in Iraq, WWII, Vietnam, the conquest of Alexander the Great...None of these things caught God by surprise! God is the Sovereign King of the Universe...and when war happens, it is because He has allowed it...and even on occasion commanded it...and even as He used His people in the OT, so He uses His people now. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

Personally, I am very thankful that there are Christians serving in the Armed Forces of the US and acting as the Light of Christ to their fellows.

The title of this thread is "Jesus says no to war". If that is so, then we've got a real problem with Matt 24...and BTW just throw the entire book of Revelation out the window...Or perhaps returning as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" really means He's coming back as a housecat.

OK...I'm done for now

[fewarechosen]

You know...

If someone would just be "straight up" and say "I'm a pacifist because of my personal convictions", or "God has led be to follow the path of absolute peace", or "The Holy Spirit has led me to renounce all violence"...I think I'd reach through the computer screen just to give 'em a big hug and say "God Bless You!!!".

Instead, what I see is a "cut and paste mosaic" of selected scripture (mostly out of context) used to tell everyone else that they're wrong.

I am amazed that there is such a rejection of the whole counsel of God...such a lack of logical and consistent application of scripture! My heavens...does not 2 Tim 3:16 mean anything? Is God not sovereign still?

One of the most vocal proponents of non-violence in a post (concerning a rape) said on one hand (summation here) that absolute non-violence was the order of the day...yet several post later says turn the rapist over to the authorities and let them deal with him...

I guess violence by proxy on one's behalf is OK...as long as we don't "soil" our hands in the process.

Am I the only one who is seeing a contradiction in logic and application here?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not angry...just heartbroken.

As far as war...it is horrible. People die. I wish there were no such thing as war (and I look forward to the day there is no more war), and I speak from first-hand experience. I have memories that I will carry for the rest of my life...and although I am forgiven and the burden lifted through Christ, yet I still see faces and relive events in my dreams.

But you know what? I have come to understand that even as God has always used imperfect people to accomplish His perfect plan, so also does he use war and the warrior.

Got news for ya...The war in Iraq, WWII, Vietnam, the conquest of Alexander the Great...None of these things caught God by surprise! God is the Sovereign King of the Universe...and when war happens, it is because He has allowed it...and even on occasion commanded it...and even as He used His people in the OT, so He uses His people now. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

Personally, I am very thankful that there are Christians serving in the Armed Forces of the US and acting as the Light of Christ to their fellows.

The title of this thread is "Jesus says no to war". If that is so, then we've got a real problem with Matt 24...and BTW just throw the entire book of Revelation out the window...Or perhaps returning as "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" really means He's coming back as a housecat.

OK...I'm done for now

have you noticed something look at how the prowar folks , go and tell everyone they are wrong. then accuse of taking everyithing out of context, saying contradict logic ---- and i totally agree on contradicting logic , because logic means nothing to god-- dont use logic-- use the spirit.

so your whole post is just telling people that you think they are wrong -- yet you accuse us pacifists of doing that, not taking time to debate points but just wanting to vent and say --- you are wrong.


now with your exact same tone and manner i say
got news for ya
you warmongers should learn something as well

but you warmongers seem to forget that god loves the "enemies" babies as much as yours

even though you warmongers seem to think it is otherwise

and all warmonger means is advocate of war, so wear that label with pride

[Clavicula_Nox]

At what page did this thread go downhill?

[jewel4Christ]

There will come a time when we do just that. That time will be when Christ rules and reigns.

I simply believe that for christians, that time is when you enter the new covenant. We are ruling and reigning with Him now....we are in HIS KINGDOM.

Pete,

I feel that this discussion has been misunderstood...on my account. I feel as if some others here have felt I am judging their viewpoints on this, and that is not my place. I have stated that I am just here to share a view, not even trying to persuade anyone else to agree with that view, and that I do not judge anyone.

Is it possible to have a discussioin on anything among ourselves and not feel judged? I hope in the future I can present my viewpoints better whereas others will not feel that way. I believe that "going to war" for a christian is no worse a sin as anything else we would all commit, and I do believe we are to help each other learn and grow..but, when it becomes personal, I feel I can no longer add anything, and since some are feeling personally attacked, I have come to the conclusion it is not worth the debate.

..but, I would like to speak to this, and answer for what my true motive in this thread really is, because, I have been accused of having another..and, God alone knows my heart on the issue, and He alone will judge me on it....

Going into Iraq... it liberated a people that was oppressed in ways we can't even fathom living in the comfort of the western world. It's too bad we weren't going into Sudan and clearing up that mess too. We can go on about the various motives and whatnot and I'll not argue all that. None of us really know anyway. But I rejoice that they've been freed from that sort of oppression. Even if it just for a season... because in that season there have been many Islamic folk introduced to Jesus Christ who now have their names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life. War is nasty. But war is at times needed. There is a time for peace and would that it be ALL of the time. But that time comes one day... not yet. For now... there is a time for war. People die in war. That's the cost of war.

The truth of the matter is that democracy is the beast system.

The truth of the matter is that many are being led astray to uphold that beast system, due to prideful exalting of ONE nation over another.

The truth of the matter is that when you speak the truth to those whom do not YET understand this, they are offended.

The truth of the matter is that I would rather be offended now, by someone whom speaks out of love to WARN his/her brethren, than to be found as a beast supporter in the days ahead. Don't get me wrong. It will be made clear...and, then everyone will see it for what it is, and until then, I guess the debate on this will go on, but it would be my hope that everyone would have an open enough mind to see that those whom speak out on this do so not out of a motive of hurt or pride, but because they LOVE their brethren whom are not yet understanding this.

With that said, it is time for me to leave this thread..and, to move on to other things/threads and discussions. NONE of us can change a person's mind on anything....until the Lord brings to light what is really going on, everyone will keep their own opinion..but, the truth of the matter is everone has been warned in this thread,and that is all I or any other "labeled pacifist" can do.....so, let time and God deal with the rest.

peaceandlove,

janet

[ProjectPeter]

hmm interesting feelings,

look at how you say peace

you say peace then even after -- you want to get some sort of little jab in --- do you think thats not obvious ?
then you even add a smug little wink , very telling.

do you think the lord does not see that ?

do you think that is his version of compassion and longsuffering ?

Uh... did you notice the little winky thing? Goodness... are you so uptight you can't even tell that I was just lightening things up with a bit of humor?