Jesus says no to war!

[jewel4Christ]

I don't believe His character/motive has changed either.

I don't believe HE wanted HIS people having an EARTHLY king over them to begin with. It was Israel after the flesh that wanted that, to begin with, and just because He LET them have what they wanted does NOT mean it was HIS WILL, or HIS ways....He said, man would reap what they sowed, and He will not be mocked. This world is going to reap destruction, because that is what IT is sowing. NO ONE can argue that..and, it is NOT God that is leading it there, it is men, whom follow those little frogs, around, with lust and greed in their hearts.

His ways are not our ways, and they certainly are not the ways of this fallen world's EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS.

So, we will disagree.

It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

and, look at every war...on this earth, how much innocent blood has been shed?

They now call it colateral damage.......with the children and woman, and perhaps, God already knew where the governments of men, would end up, with their weapons of MASS destruction, and, that is why He abhors it all.




Have a good say, I am not going to say anymore in this thread.


peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Rom 13:1

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
NASB

Be in subjection, submit... same thing.

TO THE LAWS, not the greed, lust and PRIDE.

War is not a law, for crying out loud.

It is a matter of the heart.

The bible says it only comes from lust.

Does God want us to follow the ways of lust?


Never mind, lol

Gotta get out of here, it is getting tooo weird.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

I don't believe His character/motive has changed either.

I don't believe HE wanted HIS people having an EARTHLY king over them to begin with. It was Israel after the flesh that wanted that, to begin with, and just because He LET them have what they wanted does NOT mean it was HIS WILL, or HIS ways....He said, man would reap what they sowed, and He will not be mocked. This world is going to reap destruction, because that is what IT is sowing. NO ONE can argue that..and, it is NOT God that is leading it there, it is men, whom follow those little frogs, around, with lust and greed in their hearts.

He led them to war before they had a king. He led them to war with Joshua who was not a king. With Moses and he wasn't a king. He led them to war with Debra, Samson, Gideon who was not a king.

As you said, he doesn't change. So if he commanded war in the past, then in his heart, he doesn't see war as wrong. For he will not command men to sin.

It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

Agreed. But not all in war are innocent.

and, look at every war...on this earth, how much innocent blood has been shed?

They now call it colateral damage.......with the children and woman, and perhaps, God already knew where the governments of men, would end up, with their weapons of MASS destruction, and, that is why He abhors it all.

When God commanded Saul to destroy all of the Amalekites, how much innocent blood did he command them to destroy? None. But all were killed. IOW, they weren't innocent.

Same with Joshua and how many folks he killed. Like the verses I quoted above, he killed those in the city.

Have a good say, I am not going to say anymore in this thread.

That will be fine.

[Brother Mark]

TO THE LAWS, not the greed, lust and PRIDE.

Agreed.

War is not a law, for crying out loud.

It can be and there can be a just war. God commanded may wars in the past. They were all just.

It is a matter of the heart.

The bible says it only comes from lust.

Does God want us to follow the ways of lust?

Of course not. But Joshua and Saul weren't full of lust. They were just to do as God commanded.

Gotta get out of here, it is getting tooo weird.

OK.

[theleast]

Rom 13:1

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
NASB

Be in subjection, submit... same thing.

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Hmm...my KJV gives it a slightly different context it seems.

But that being said...I guess that the German government during the holocaust was doing no wrong then in asking their citizens to turn out Jews for the concentration camps, and you would follow that law willingly and help to realize the "final solution?" That was a government commiting that act yes? Set up by God to fulfill the will of God?

[jewel4Christ]

Quote:
It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

Agreed. But not all in war are innocent.

I just want to make one more point.

You seem to overlook my good points.

My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Thats all.

bye now.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Hmm...my KJV gives it a slightly different context it seems.

But that being said...I guess that the German government during the holocaust was doing no wrong then in asking their citizens to turn out Jews for the concentration camps, and you would follow that law willingly and help to realize the "final solution?" That was a government commiting that act yes? Set up by God to fulfill the will of God?

Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.

[EarlyCall]

"I wasn't aware the OT was nothing more than laws. Did you happen to notice anything at all in the OT that wasn't about the laws? "
Don t know what u r on about?

Sure. I could have been clear here. There is much more to the OT than laws. You mentioned we are not under the old covenant if I am not mistaken. But the OT is more than just the old covenant. And it speaks to the issue of war. And it doesn't speak to it as you do.

My point then is this: You contradict the OT when it comes to war. Your use of scripture is out of context. But I guess that will come down to a matter of opinion.

"What do you make of the government wielding the sword? At the time Paul spoke these words the Roman government was in charge and they carried and used the sword. What did they use it for?"
Please note: in Rom 13, where it speaks of the sword, before 13, comes 12.

I don't need to refer to chapter twelve or anything else. The scripture I've referred to is clear enough.

There God tells us how to respond to a war situation.
The issue we are discussing here is war. if u have comments saying we should fight a war, then let me know, but I’m no expert in the sword dept.
remember too, what Jesus commands stands firm, no matter what any government says!

Yes, we should fight wars when it is required. What Jesus said wasn't in conflict with the government. You claim it is. That then is your opinion.


"Can you tell me why Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to leave the military but instead spoke so highly of his faith? Do you think Jesus missed a perfect opportunity to guide this man out of sin into righteous living? "
I do not know this centurion, or how he lived, and both of us can only presume how he lived.

Well, it is not a difficult thing to know how they lived. They fought in wars and ordered others into war and ordered others to kill in battle. This is no mystery. It's history. It's fact. And Jesus well knew this too.

Jesus was making an example of his faith, and let us not try and put words in here that do not exist!

I'm not adding any words. I asked you why you thought Jesus didn't say anything about it. It would have been a great opportunity to tell the centurion he should not be in the military because ti was wrong. Seems to me Jesus took many opportunities to point out wrongs. Why not this time if it was wrong?

Perhaps after pentecost, the centurion did join the church, and lived a holy life, we do not know.

Didn't you just a moment ago suggest we should not put in words that do not exist? Doesn't matter. We don't have to guess of a later time. We have the time I spoke of.

There were others who wanted to follow Jesus immediately, that Jesus disallowed.
I guess you need to ask Him yourself

"Another such occasion involved Peter. God spoke to Peter but never said anything about having Peter tell the man to get out of the military. Just another missed opportunity?"

You'll find it in Acts. God told Peter to go to Cornelius' house. He was a centurion. Another great opportunity for God to tell a man in the military that it was wrong. But instead God sent Peter there to preach the gospel. Why do you suppose God passed up such great opportunities as these?

Where?

"Back to the OT for a moment. When God commanded the Jews to fight, including David and from the very beginning, what OT law was God using to make the command? Please be specific".
Now we are under the new covenant .God changed"an eye for an eye".see matt5, luke6.

That was my point originally. We are not talking about the laws and rules and regulations of the OT covenant. War does not enter into that. And an eye for an eye has nothing to do with war either.


"Also, where in the NT did God speak specifically to the issue of war - as in where did He specifically mention war? Isn't war important enough to be mentioned specifically and directly?"

Try as much as you like, but you cannot get away from Jesus command. Love your enemy is directly
a reference to war. If you find that by killing your enemy , you are loving him/her, you probably will need to see the King.

The whole thing here hinges on one thing only: everything you refer to has only to do with individuals and not governments. Now this has been mentioned by at least one other in this thread prior to this.

So you have your mind set and that's fine. Believe this as you will. I see no problem with it. There are people who are conscientious objectors and that is fine. But I don't agree with you.

I would need someone to explain to me how God commanding David and many others to kill in war was right then but wrong now - and tell me how God isn't wrong for what He did back then. The covenant may have changed, but I've read that God does not change.

So was God wrong in the OT? Do you understand my question?

[Brother Mark]

I just want to make one more point.

Hard not to come back isn't it?

You seem to overlook my good points.

I see the points and refute them. Scripturally.

My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

And I pointed out wars where innocent blood was not shed. For instance, God told Saul to wipe out an entire nation. Did God give Saul a command to shed innocent blood? Nope.

So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

He didn't just allow it. He COMMANDED it. Big difference. He willed it. He WANTED it to happen. He even swore to war against Amalek every generation.

Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

I can agree with that. But I do not agree that both sides are in error. Clearly Saul and Joshua were not in error when they went to war. They were being obedient. Saul was disobedient when he did not carry out God's command to destroy all of the Amalekites.

No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

He hates sin. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But he commands war to occur. That we know and have it in scripture.

That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

And some overlook that God actually willed and commanded war to occur.

I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

One is to love his enemies. But if they are committing evil, Government should kill them for it. That's God's intention for government.

If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

Agreed. If there were no evil men, then the need for government to wield the sword of God and his vengeance would be gone. But we don't live in a perfect world so the need to wield the sword of God's wrath still exist. Romans 13 explains it well.

So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Government is not the world. It was established by God to control evil men through forceful means if necessary.

Thats all.

bye now.

OK.

[EarlyCall]

Quote:
It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...


I just want to make one more point.

You seem to overlook my good points.

My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Thats all.

bye now.

peaceandlove,

janet

What of the battles God commanded in which innocents died? Would their blood ultimately then be on God since He commanded the battle be fought?

You are mistaken and in error to claim God allowed some wars in the OT. Whether He allowed some or not means nothing. We are not debating that.

For a fact God commanded them. In fact, God led even the wicked sometimes to wage war on the Jews. God took the credit for this. It is in His word. I'm not making it up.

Now, how do you explain God commanding wars?

[jewel4Christ]

I wish I could get out of here, lol.....


I have to ask this.

Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.

So, you don't have any problem with shedding MORE innocent blood, to keep other innocent blood that was shed, through the vengeance of men?

That is what is crazy to me..sounds like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth....or are you denying that innocent blood is shed in wars today, any war?

Good grief, do you watch the news. Need I go get numbers and copy and paste them?

That which ends in innocent blood, cannot be condoned, in my mind.

I suppose when the innocent muslim children and woman go before God, He will say, "Oh well, your blood is not sooo innocent?"...I don't think that is the way to think.

There are no wars where innocent blood is not shed, and those whom think there are must have blinders on.

I have dealt with men whom have had to live with the nightmares of the children they saw laying dead on the streets, and the innocent woman whom have been murderered/raped. I did home health for years, and set at the bedsides of many men whom could not get the awful images out of their heads, and their HEARTS, and could not even find peace with the guilt they felt. I believe Jesus when He said, it is all in vain.

I do not think that God is a respector of persons wherein He says, "Go kill this people, for they have shed innocent blood, and then turns right around and causes you do the same. It is a very wrong agenda, in mho.

Yet, God will have the last word on the matter no matter what we individually think..so I leave it for Him to muddle through....and, I would not take a position, that would say, YES, He does under ALL circumstances. There is no such thing as a just war, this day and age, with the weapons of mass destruction..and all...those whom think there are, need to rethink a thing or two...when, the blood of those innocent woman and children are on your hands, God says you will answer for it.

Not in a way where one would lose one's salvation, etc...but, your heart will have to deal with the guilt, and I am here to tell you that it is not a easy row to hoe...but, of course, we can close our eyes to the truth of the matter, eh?


peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

What of the battles God commanded in which innocents died? Would their blood ultimately then be on God since He commanded the battle be fought?

You are mistaken and in error to claim God allowed some wars in the OT. Whether He allowed some or not means nothing. We are not debating that.

For a fact God commanded them. In fact, God led even the wicked sometimes to wage war on the Jews. God took the credit for this. It is in His word. I'm not making it up.

Now, how do you explain God commanding wars?

I have already explained this...God uses earthly nations to correct other earthly nations. We are not a part of a "earthly nation", we are of HIS NATION, that is to be a light to the REST.

When that light has nothing left to shine, and we do as they do, then the salt has no more saltiness.

People can deny that God hates war, and they can deny why.

I won't be partaking.

When Jesus comes, the world will also fight Him....and war against Him.

It will be the nations gathered together in war that will do this...would you want to be among them?

I don't have anything else to add to this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet

[theleast]

Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.

And who decides what blood is innocent? Only God is the judge.

[Brother Mark]

I wish I could get out of here, lol.....

You can leave at any time.

So, you don't have any problem with shedding MORE innocent blood, to keep other innocent blood that was shed, through the vengeance of men?

Answer me this, of the Amalekites that God told Saul to kill, how many of them were innocent?

That is what is crazy to me..sounds like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth....or are you denying that innocent blood is shed in wars today, any war?

How much innocent blood did Joshua shed when he destroyed all those that refused to leave in Canaan?

Answer me those two questions, and I will give you an opinion.

Good grief, do you watch the news. Need I go get numbers and copy and paste them?

Yep. But first, answer the questions above and then we'll move into innocent blood. Has your argument has now shifted from no war at all to only war that doesn't shed innocent blood?

That which ends in innocent blood, cannot be condoned, in my mind.

I suppose when the innocent muslim children and woman go before God, He will say, "Oh well, your blood is not sooo innocent?"...I don't think that is the way to think.

There are no wars where innocent blood is not shed, and those whom think there are must have blinders on.

OK, now I have to ask again, When Saul was commanded by God to destroy ALL of the Amalekites, was that innocent blood? Or what about Joshua?

I have dealt with men whom have had to live with the nightmares of the children they saw laying dead on the streets, and the innocent woman whom have been murderered/raped. I did home health for years, and set at the bedsides of many men whom could not get the awful images out of their heads, and their HEARTS, and could not even find peace with the guilt they felt. I believe Jesus when He said, it is all in vain.

Indeed. Violence has it's price. Unfortunately war is part of living in an evil world. Thank God for establishing governments that will protect me from the evil that others in the world put on their citizens.

I do not think that God is a respector of persons wherein He says, "Go kill this people, for they have shed innocent blood, and then turns right around and causes you do the same. It is a very wrong agenda, in mho.

You keep harping on innocent blood but what about Joshua and Saul. When God told Saul to wipe out the entire nation, did he command the shedding of innocent blood?

Not in a way where one would lose one's salvation, etc...but, your heart will have to deal with the guilt, and I am here to tell you that it is not a easy row to hoe...but, of course, we can close our eyes to the truth of the matter, eh?

Indeed! Many do turn a blind eye to the truth.

[Brother Mark]

And who decides what blood is innocent? Only God is the judge.

If that were the case, then God would not have given government the right to shed blood. He established a means in which to determine who was innocent and who was not.

It would be evil of government and against God's direct command if they didn't not protect those innocents under their care and authority from evil doers.