Jesus says no to war!

[jewel4Christ]

Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)





Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.


What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.

Love does NOT harm his neighbor.

Does God love those he kills? Are governments to allow evil men to steal, kill and destroy? Is that what the command of God means?

[fewarechosen]

I think you are going off the deep end. What you've done here is to set up a worst case scenario and then pretend it is the usual, the standard. it is not in many cases.

We are of course not to murder. Killing is not always murder. That God made clear in His word. Ah, but that was the old God of the OT. We have a new and improved God now don't we!

It is amazing to me that some people can call God God but treat Him like He has some sort of split personality disorder.

we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

[ProjectPeter]

how can one show you what is written in his heart ?

Well.. if it is God that wrote it on your heart then God has clearly defined "kill"... right? And God killed. So once again... if all killing is a sin and we can't kill... then God killed therefore your doctrine forces you to accuse God Himself of committing sin. Look... you guys are saying that when you say that all killing is a sin therefore....

[ProjectPeter]

Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)





Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.


What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janet

Was God carnal when He killed?

[Brother Mark]

we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

Yes. It was the Holy Spirit that enabled them to wage war.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

The Holy Spirit came upon men in the OT just as he comes upon men in the NT. The difference is now the Holy Spirit also lives inside men. But the OT saints "had" the Holy Spirit too.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

David did have the law of God written in his heart. Though not all OT folks did.

Ps 119:11
11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against Thee.
NASB

and

Ps 51:6
6 Behold, Thou dost desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part Thou wilt make me know wisdom.
NASB

The covenants are different and God does write his word in our hearts. But he also wrote it in David's heart too. The difference is we have the Holy Spirit in us not just on us. Being born again is not just a new testament concept. Jesus taught it before he died and rose again. He expected Nicodemus to be aware of it. Saul also had a new heart and the Holy Spirit came upon him.

But the new covenant is way better and far more complete in that we become partakers of the uncreated life of God himself.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.[/quote]

[ProjectPeter]

we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

Yes they did. Moses had the Spirit as did Joshua.

Numbers 11:16 *¶The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.


Numbers 27:18 *So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

[jewel4Christ]

Does God love those he kills? Are governments to allow evil men to steal, kill and destroy? Is that what the command of God means?

God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.

I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Please answer this scripture here, too:


"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.


1 kings 5:3

Are you going to deny this fact?

peaceandlove,

janet

[Slug1]

How did I miss this thread even as busy as I was yesterday

I'm playing catchup now

[jewel4Christ]

we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

AMEN, it is clear in the word of God that God did use them BEFORE they were converted. Afterwards, they had a NEW heart, one based on LOVE.

In reality, I think God was really showing mankind the difference between the two ways, even back then...His ways are NOT our ways.

I will stand with what He has revealed through love.


peaceandlove,

janet

[EarlyCall]

Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)





Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Yea, well, I'm thinking of Moses and when he came down from the mountain and found the golden calf. Would you lke to comment on that situation in light of what you just said? There ar plenty of other examples too. And please, don't try to use David as your example. Long after David had died God consistently referred to David as the man that did all God wanted him to do - except for that thing with Uriah. So that very much contradicts your claims immediately above. At I see it anyway.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.


No, listening to you and some others, it sounds like God did one thing and now another. It sounds like God drug us into His killing and now wants us to stay out of it. I wish He'd make up His mind.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Agreed.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.

Well of course it is pointless. But that isn't why we do or don't do it. That isn't why you were in here posting. Not because you thought it held out some promise of changing anything. Did you? If so, you must be new to this.

What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janet

I have to say something here. Oh, ok, this thread sure is hoppin!

[jewel4Christ]

David did have the law of God written in his heart. Though not all OT folks did.

Ps 119:11
11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against Thee.

No one is saying otherwise. What we are saying is that BEFORE they did, God used them in a carnal WAY.

Now, would you please answer my questions?

Thanks....

peaceandlove,

janet

[ProDeo]

Hi BM!

For the sake of the discussion I prefer to take the 100% pacifist position for the moment. It's one of those long term unresolved issues that keep coming back without ever ending in a clear 100-0% stance, it's always 70/30, 80/20 and now because of this thread 50/50

Biblically there is a lot to say for the 100% pacifist stance. Killing is only commanded by God, and by God alone, not by humans. Christians follow in the footsteps of our Lord in the same way as He walked on Earth. And Jesus never was interested in any earthly business, not in politics, not in properties, nor in money issues, not in law-enforcement, let alone war.

Instead Jesus said, "Seek the Kingdom first", and about money/politics: "Then He [Jesus] said to them, Give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to God the things which are God’s".

Jesus lived a complete 100% pacifist live on Earth (except maybe the Temple cleaning) and ordered us specifically to do the very same.

It's true that when our Lord will return He will kill, probably millions, it will be one big massacre but Jesus then acts as King Jesus who is given the authority over Earth and Heaven by the Father. We are never given such orders. Even in the OT wars of Israel it was God who gave the order for war. Bottom line, God kills, we don't. Romans 12:9 Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

In this spirit let me comment between your lines.

Actually, God himself established land ownership in scripture.

Exactly where in Scripture?

But he protected those that were with him. On a spiritual level, you are correct in that he allows us to suffer momentarily. But when Jesus was here, he protected those that were with him supernaturally.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Although Jesus had all power in Heaven & Earth He allowed 11 of his 12 disciples being slaughtered by a cruel martyr death. Bottom line, there are no such guarantees of supernatural protection. If this were true we would not have this discussion.

King David was under the same exact command. To love his neighbor, yet he warred.

David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.

God himself gave the command to love our enemies. Does God love his enemies? Yes he does! Does that keep him from going to war in Revelation? No it does not. He will make it right in the end. He will bring justice. And he will send to hell those whom he loves. Does God love his enemy and kill him? Yes.

In full agreement. God does all that. God decides war, we don't.

Ed

[fewarechosen]

Yes they did. Moses had the Spirit as did Joshua.

Numbers 11:16 *¶The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.


Numbers 27:18 *So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

[jewel4Christ]

I have to say something here. Oh, ok, this thread sure is hoppin!

..and, hopefully, we may begin to see what is being said in reality...instead of what some think we are saying?

peaceandlove,

janet