Jesus says no to war!

[jewel4Christ]

interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

I personally believe that many of the ot saints received the indwelling of the holy spirit and even had the same law written on their hearts, after conversion, but where I see the diffference is that while they were yet carnal/ before they fully submitted themselves to God, through repentance, and faith, that God used them in carnal ways, thereby showing the difference even back then between the way of the Lord and the way of the flesh...I would be in agreement, however that there is a huge difference between the holy spirit "landing" on them, as in over them, but not within them, than, what occurs when He actually enters your heart.

You must be born again.




peaceandlove,

janet

[EarlyCall]

we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

No, I know what you are saying, but I am trying to make a point - different covenant or not it is still the same God and He is still the same now as He was then.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

The Holy Spirit fell upon Saul and he began to prophesy along with the other prophets.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

Yea, you need to take this further please. Because see, I figure it this way: Holy Spirit or God Himself speaking to us, same thing. So when God told David go and kill, and David did so, and God said good job, what difference then would the Holy Spirit have made? What would have changed?

Again, one more time. Unless you or anyone can tell me why Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get out of the military or why God didn't tell Peter to tell Cornelius to get out fo the military, then I ain't buying it.

Fact is this: you cannot explain it and therefore you must ignore it or try to explain it away somehow.

Off how God sent Peter a vision and said go and tell Corneilus and his family about Christ. They got saved, they received the Holy Spirit but oh wait, no one, including God Himself bothered to tell Corneilus it was wrong to be in the military. And no one can say Corneilus was in no position to kill because he was in the military. In fact he was.

And Christ failed to tell the centurion He so highly praised for his faith to get out of the military. Now one must ask why not. I mean Jesus really owed it to this man to tell him this. But He didn't. Very strange.

Don't you ever wonder about this?

[Brother Mark]

Hi BM!

For the sake of the discussion I prefer to take the 100% pacifist position for the moment. It's one of those long term unresolved issues that keep coming back without ever ending in a clear 100-0% stance, it's always 70/30, 80/20 and now because of this thread 50/50

OK. I hear you.

Biblically there is a lot to say for the 100% pacifist stance. Killing is only commanded by God, and by God alone, not by humans. Christians follow in the footsteps of our Lord in the same way as He walked on Earth. And Jesus never was interested in any earthly business, not in politics, not in properties, nor in money issues, not in law-enforcement, let alone war.

To a large part, I agree. Where I would disagree is that God established government for the purpose of resisting evil men. It started with Noah after God promised to not flood the world again. He then charged man with keeping evil men in check so as to avoid the world getting so filled with violence again. What we will see in the latter days, IMO is a move to stop government from shedding man's blood and then violence will again fill the earth as it did in the days of Noah.

Instead Jesus said, "Seek the Kingdom first", and about money/politics: "Then He [Jesus] said to them, Give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to God the things which are God’s".

Jesus lived a complete 100% pacifist live on Earth (except maybe the Temple cleaning) and ordered us specifically to do the very same.

I know and the temple is us now. So we are to clean ourself out just as violently. Let us remember that Jesus was charged with a specific mission. He exemplified the Father's character. God is patient, kind, gentle, etc. Yet, Jesus has also led men into battle (i.e. Joshua) and God has enabled men to fight and kill (Samson). Indeed, we are to seek God's kingdom above all. Part of that is allowing government to do it's job to keep evil men in check. IMO, that doesn't mean we should mix religion and politics. IOW, government is not the means by which we teach men the bible, or about prayer, or conversion or some other thing. It is simply the means by which God has chosen to protect mankind from the evil within men's heart.

It's true that when our Lord will return He will kill, probably millions, it will be one big massacre but Jesus then acts as King Jesus who is given the authority over Earth and Heaven by the Father. We are never given such orders. Even in the OT wars of Israel it was God who gave the order for war. Bottom line, God kills, we don't. Romans 12:9 Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I agree with the part about vengeance being God's. But look at how God takes vengeance in Romans 13.

Rom 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
NASB

God, being a God of authority, takes vengeance upon evil men through government authority. As an individual, I must always forgive. I must turn the other cheek. But God takes vengeance through government. Evil men are to fear government because God knows they don't fear Him. So God takes vengeance upon men through government and gave men the right to do so back in Noah's day.

Exactly where in Scripture?

I can give many examples. Ananias and Saphira owned land. God told them it was theres and they did not have to give it. It was in keeping back part while saying they gave all that got them in trouble. Leviticus also speaks of man's property. The jubilee year was all about returning land back to it's original owner.

Lev 14:33-34

33 The Lord further spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 34 "When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession,
NASB

Lev 25:8-11

8 'You are also to count off seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
NASB

[qutoe]Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Although Jesus had all power in Heaven & Earth He allowed 11 of his 12 disciples being slaughtered by a cruel martyr death. Bottom line, there are no such guarantees of supernatural protection. If this were true we would not have this discussion.[/quote]

Agreed. God allows his children to suffer for a greater reward. However, in Jesus earthly ministry, they were protected until the shepherd was struck. Not one was lost. We have no guarantees of supernatural protection from violence.

David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.

David was ordered. But many today say that God won't order war today. Not sure why they say that. He has done it in the past. He's going to do it again in the future. Not sure why today is any different when it comes to his character as far as war is concerned. If you are asking me do I think there are just and unjust wars, yes. I think God punished Japan and Germany severely for their involvement in WW2. But that's my opinion.

In full agreement. God does all that. God decides war, we don't.

Ed

Yep. And men will make mistakes on many things. IMO though, it doesn't remove the ideal that God gave man government to make sure man was protected from the violence of Noah's day.

[EarlyCall]

interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

And the Holy Spirit fell uppon Saul and he began to prophesy with the other prophets.

There are more. Different Holy Spirit? I don't think so.

[jewel4Christ]

Don't you ever wonder about this?

No, I don't. The bible makes it plain that love does not harm his neighbor. How much clearer can it be?

Can a person be in the military and not harm his neighbor?

Yes, they can, if they are not called to the battleground.

...and, that is why once a man is called to the battleground, it is THEN that God shows them how futile war is...I have talked to too many soldiars on that issue.


peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

AMEN, it is clear in the word of God that God did use them BEFORE they were converted. Afterwards, they had a NEW heart, one based on LOVE.

In reality, I think God was really showing mankind the difference between the two ways, even back then...His ways are NOT our ways.

I will stand with what He has revealed through love.


peaceandlove,

janet

Saul got a new heart from God.

1 Sam 10:9-10

9 Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.
NASB

[jewel4Christ]

Quote:
David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.

David was ordered. But many today say that God won't order war today. Not sure why they say that. He has done it in the past. He's going to do it again in the future. Not sure why today is any different when it comes to his character as far as war is concerned. If you are asking me do I think there are just and unjust wars, yes. I think God punished Japan and Germany severely for their involvement in WW2. But that's my opinion.

I have not seen one person in this thread say this. Where are you getting the idea that we are saying that God does not order war? He very much orders war, and always has.

The argument has to do with WHOM He uses to fulfill this.

He does NOT use christians...they are taught to love their enemies, and love does not harm a enemy.

Could we stay on topic?

Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.

Are you saying David was carnal? And what of Samson who went to war when the Holy Spirit came upon him?

And again, let me ask this... does God kill those whom he loves? It has been stated over and over again that love won't kill. I beg to differ. I say God is love and that he does kill.

I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

I don't think you have answered them all. But I will answer yours. For instance, you simply said God used carnal men. When God killed Korah, who did he use? When God killed Pharaoh and his armies, whom did he use?

I would not call David, Samson, Debra or Joshua carnal. Do you?

1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

There is a huge difference between the two. For instance, a carnal man will murder. A man led of the Spirit won't murder but he may kill.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

Samson, a Spirit led man in this instance, slew a thousand men. God so strengthened him, he was able to do it with a jawbone. Clearly, Samson was not operating in the power of his carnal flesh, but rather in the power and might of the Holy Spirit.

2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Let me ask again before I answer this question. Did God kill innocents when he flooded the earth in Noah's day? Did he kill innocents in Sodom? What about when King Saul was commanded to kill all the Amalekites, were any of them innocent?

"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

No doubt, David was a man of war and that is not what God is about. However, David was a man after God's own heart and knew the necessity of war. God is not a warmonger. But he is no war avoider either.

God himself kills and told man to do the same after the flood. He reinforced it in Romans 13.

[Brother Mark]

I have not seen one person in this thread say this. Where are you getting the idea that we are saying that God does not order war? He very much orders war, and always has.

The argument has to do with WHOM He uses to fulfill this.

He does NOT use christians...they are taught to love their enemies, and love does not harm a enemy.

He used his children in the OT to wage war. He will use them in the NT as well. God used David, a man after his own heart to wage war. He used Joshua. He used Moses, the meekest man in the world, to wage war.

God uses his children to do so. When soldiers came to John the Baptist and to Christ, not one time did either of them ever say "Don't go to war". They did tell them not to do other things though. But they remained silent on the war part. Shoot, that is what soldiers are for, keeping the peace through violence. These saved soldiers were not told to be non-violent.

[jewel4Christ]

Saul got a new heart from God.

1 Sam 10:9-10

I agree. He was converted...at some point during that conversion, God changed his way of thinking.

would you please answer my questions?

1 kings 5:3 "You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

1. why does God make a distinction as to when a person can really worship in spirit and in truth, just as He did in the case of David?

2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?

Can we please stay on topic?

thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

No, I don't. The bible makes it plain that love does not harm his neighbor. How much clearer can it be?

Really? God is love. Does he harm people in hell? Does he himself kill folks?

[fewarechosen]

Yea, you need to take this further please. Because see, I figure it this way: Holy Spirit or God Himself speaking to us, same thing. So when God told David go and kill, and David did so, and God said good job, what difference then would the Holy Spirit have made? What would have changed?

Again, one more time. Unless you or anyone can tell me why Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get out of the military or why God didn't tell Peter to tell Cornelius to get out fo the military, then I ain't buying it.

Fact is this: you cannot explain it and therefore you must ignore it or try to explain it away somehow.

Off how God sent Peter a vision and said go and tell Corneilus and his family about Christ. They got saved, they received the Holy Spirit but oh wait, no one, including God Himself bothered to tell Corneilus it was wrong to be in the military. And no one can say Corneilus was in no position to kill because he was in the military. In fact he was.

And Christ failed to tell the centurion He so highly praised for his faith to get out of the military. Now one must ask why not. I mean Jesus really owed it to this man to tell him this. But He didn't. Very strange.

Don't you ever wonder about this?

somehow you think i am saying that everyone should get out of the military or something --- thats not at all what im saying. you can do gods will in anyplace you are.

im just saying the armies and all that is not even needed and to question why some countries decide to go to war.

[coshirly]

Jesus is qouted in the bible many times as having said in as many words that the ways of heaven and earth are very different. The consequences of war are suffering, death, poverty and displacement. Unfortunately, we human beings are not divine so these are the things that we will all suffer with or without war. I believe that the purpose of life is that through all these 'human' sufferings we remain faithful to God and love him above all others and stop pointing fingers at each other about who started this war and that war and simply accept that these are the consequences of 'free will' and before we ever came into existence there were wars, and so they will still be there long after we are dead.

[ProjectPeter]

interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

Numbers 11:17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.
18 *"And say to the people, `Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat.
19 *`You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days,
20 *but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you; because you have rejected the LORD who is among you and have wept before Him, saying, "Why did we ever leave Egypt?"´"
21 *But Moses said, "The people, among whom I am, are 600,000 on foot; yet Thou hast said, `I will give them meat in order that they may eat for a whole month.´
22 *"Should flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to be sufficient for them? Or should all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to be sufficient for them?"
23 *And the LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD's power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
24 *¶So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD. Also, he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and stationed them around the tent.
25 *Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

Now... if you can show me somewhere how Moses' spirit carried with it the gift of prophecy... that could be translated proper with the small "s". Myself... I am pretty much guessing that you're not going to find any such Scripture.

[fewarechosen]

Numbers 11:17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.
18 *"And say to the people, `Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat.
19 *`You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days,
20 *but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you; because you have rejected the LORD who is among you and have wept before Him, saying, "Why did we ever leave Egypt?"´"
21 *But Moses said, "The people, among whom I am, are 600,000 on foot; yet Thou hast said, `I will give them meat in order that they may eat for a whole month.´
22 *"Should flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to be sufficient for them? Or should all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to be sufficient for them?"
23 *And the LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD's power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
24 *¶So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD. Also, he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and stationed them around the tent.
25 *Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

Now... if you can show me somewhere how Moses' spirit carried with it the gift of prophecy... that could be translated proper with the small "s". Myself... I am pretty much guessing that you're not going to find any such Scripture.

actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.