Jesus says no to war!

[Slug1]

no one can kill anyone without gods permission -- end of story

perfect love casts out fear

what are you afraid of ? some people will die ?
they will die anyway, so who do you think you are saving ?

christ could have told his apostles -- because you are my chosen you are not to die horribly so i will give you soldiers to protect you, but he didnt. he let them all die very bad deaths -1

so do you say christ did not love his disciples because he chose to let them die ?

god let his son die a horrible death ?

would you let your son die a horrible death ?

that is the difference between mans ways and gods


christ could have had 12 legions of angels come -- he could have said enough i will smash this planet right now. but instead he chose to suffer and die horribly so we could take that as our example.

christ never lifted a sword against a man and he lived perfectly - if we did exactly the same we would live perfectly too. will anyone say otherwise ?

christ could have been supercop while he was here and say look people this is how you are supposed to protect flying around spraying blood and limbs --- he did not do that for a reason --because thats now how we are supposed to live.

christ never killed a man -- and thats a fact
the faster one can learn he is to walk as christ the faster he can help his brothers

let the heathens kill heathens

Jesus has been killing for over 6000 years through obedient servants. Even when the servant does it the hard way... He still killed through Samson. When He returns He'll be doing it Himself this time.

[Alaska]

Slug1,

Many of us notice that your justification of killing is coming from the OT.
Jesus has brought a New Testamant, whereby even being angry without a cause with our brother is worthy of the same punishment as killing; much less is killing allowed. The NT reveals that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. In the NT, God has reserved vengeance for Himself: It does not belong to us. Taking it is an act of disobedience and thievery.

Paul said those justifying themselves by the law are fallen from grace, not accepting the greater and better New Covenant that Jesus died to bring to the world, which covenant and its terms as laid out in Matt. 5 you clearly appear to flatly refuse.

Being in bondage to the law, (not letting go of obsolete OT things that the NT overrides), was what the 1st century faithful had to endure. Likewise, modern Christianity is going the way of putting themselves in bondage to the law by refusal to accept Christ on His terms. They are going back to what God allowed and even commanded under the OT, which things the NT no longer allows.
Such a heretical position, I believe, is not far from the Catholics of old time who persecuted other Christians who did not agree with their heretical doctrines.

What do you think Slug, I mean you are quite passionate in your position; should true American patriots get rid of all the "heretics" who say that Christians should literally obey Jesus with regard to not killing?
I mean, some could claim that they are a threat to national security.

[fewarechosen]

Jesus has been killing for over 6000 years through obedient servants. Even when the servant does it the hard way... He still killed through Samson. When He returns He'll be doing it Himself this time.

when he walked on earth and had full authority to kill, did he ?

you will find the answer to be no

he came on this earth as a man - to show us how to live.

so please show me scripture of jesus christ in the flesh killing a man.

and in full human flesh not resurected glory

war was the one of the biggest issues of the world, and yet christ himself when in the flesh, never took a sword to a man nor did he ever tell a man to.

search scripture hard. you war advocates quote alot of scripture in here david, paul --yadda yadda.

my lord jesus christ when he was here on earth , show me his prowar stance.
show me where he says my beloved i will protect you with armed soldiers and they will kill to keep you safe.


the lord jesus christ picked 12 men who he loved more than you can love anything in your whole life, whatever feeling you have of compassion and love and anything else is dwarfed by the love christ had for the very people who drove nails into his hands, and who brutally killed his chosen -1

he loved his enemies

dont worry about the flesh of you and your loved ones, and worry more about the souls

god let his own son be brutally killed

would you do the same ?

that is the difference between gods ways and mans

and again i will ask
we are to love our neighbor as ourself -- do we bomb ourself ?

[Brother Mark]

Slug1,

Many of us notice that your justification of killing is coming from the OT.
Jesus has brought a New Testamant, whereby even being angry without a cause with our brother is worthy of the same punishment as killing; much less is killing allowed. The NT reveals that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. In the NT, God has reserved vengeance for Himself: It does not belong to us. Taking it is an act of disobedience and thievery.

Hate was wrong in the OT too. The vengeance God reserves for himself is delivered through government in Romans 13 and that is NT. In Rev, we will see Jesus kill again. Even in Acts we see where God directly killed Ananias and his wife. In 1 Cor 11 we see where many are sick and "sleep" because they eat unworthily.

So for now, God uses government that he established to carry out vengeance on evil men. And we know that government is good and from God even if evil men use it for evil.

As for the OT, God does not change. His character is the same.

Paul said those justifying themselves by the law are fallen from grace, not accepting the greater and better New Covenant that Jesus died to bring to the world, which covenant and its terms as laid out in Matt. 5 you clearly appear to flatly refuse.

We don't refuse it. We take it in context. In context, we as individuals are to turn the other cheek and behave as described in Romans 12. Because we also know about Romans 13 where God will take vengeance.

Do you believe we should let all criminals go and forgive them?

Being in bondage to the law, (not letting go of obsolete OT things that the NT overrides), was what the 1st century faithful had to endure. Likewise, modern Christianity is going the way of putting themselves in bondage to the law by refusal to accept Christ on His terms and going back to what God allowed and even commanded under the OT.

What was written in earlier times was written for our example. What book did Jesus and Paul preach from? It is not to be ignored.

Such a heretical position, I believe is not far from the Catholics of old time who persecuted other Christians who did not agree with their heretical doctrines.

Not even close to being the same.

What do you think Slug, should they get rid of all the "heretics" who say that we as Christians should literally obey Jesus with regard to not killing? I mean, aren't they threat to national security?

Unless they shed the blood of men, there is no need to kill them. But if they shed the blood of innocent men, they God commands their death from Noah's time before the Law of Moses, then in the time of Israel under the law of Moses, and into the present day under Romans 13, and will again in the future in Revelations. The death of evil men can be seen as carried out by God in all four times.

[Brother Mark]

when he walked on earth and had full authority to kill, did he ?

you will find the answer to be no

he came on this earth as a man - to show us how to live.

so please show me scripture of jesus christ in the flesh killing a man.

Had he been a king of a nation, he would have. But he wasn't put here as a king of a nation. When he comes back as King of the World, he will kill.

god let his own son be brutally killed

would you do the same ?

that is the difference between gods ways and mans

And 70 years later he viciously judged those that did so. But lets not forget Jesus came for the express purpose of dying on the cross. He was sent for that very thing. But when he is sent again, he will kill himself as he has done before.

God's ways are for man to kill murders. He is the one that established it!

[quiet dove]

war was the one of the biggest issues of the world, and yet christ himself when in the flesh, never took a sword to a man nor did he ever tell a man to.

I'm curious, on a more personal level. If a criminal comes into your home, would you protect your children or watch while they harmed them? If you had opportunity to protect the innocent in whatever scenario, on the street a child is being abused by a criminal would you allow that to continue so you would not have to retaliate with the same violence to stop the criminal.

Is it not the same with war to protect the innocent and those unable to protect themselves? Are you guys who are so against war saying the stronger more able bodied of civilizations should turn their backs and say well.... every man for himself, your on your own, cant use violence or kill so guess your out of luck?

[quiet dove]

And another thought. All that has been created, including men, belongs to God. He is the potter, men are the clay. If some of the clay is bad clay and God says to the good clay to destroy the bad clay, God would have the right to do so and we would have the right to do so because the potter gave us command to.

Basically being against all war is saying to the helpless of so many countries, yep, Jesus loves ya but I cant kill so I guess you will just have to suffer?

[jewel4Christ]

First of all, I want to say AMEN to Alaska, and FEW!!!

\I wonder how many pages this will get to before the ONE point is understood, lol?

God uses satan, as His tool to work His wrath, against His enemies.

God uses satan, as His tool to work His wrath, against His enemies.

God uses satan, as His tool to work His wrath, against His enemies.

In every case in the old covenant, where God sent a nation against another nation, it was a carnal nation.

There is ONLY ONE SPIRITUAL nation..and, it was NOT in a "group" in the old covenant, as a nation.

Some are trying to say that Israel AFTER the flesh, in the old covenant, were a spiritual nation. The new covenant states OTHERWISE....they were a carnal people, with a carnal, STONE law....

Only those of faith AMONG them, were a part of what we call the "church"...the rest were carnal, and of THIS PRESENT WORLD, held in bondage to sin, and the ways of DEATH.

David, a man after God's own heart was a man of war, BEFORE God convicted him of his wrong ways..and, was not even allowed to serve God, through the tabernacle, due to the blood he had shed. Do we need to go back and reread all those post's and scriptures again? It appears to me that everytime a point is made for the truth of this matter, it is overlooked, and NO ONE gives a DIFFERENT way those contradictions can be interpretted.

In my next post, I would like to try to show how God has always used carnal men, led of satan to fulfill His wrath on His enemies, and YES, when God's wrath goes OUT, through the use of satan as HIS tool, it does fall on God's people, but, God's people NEVER ONE time, issued that wrath to God! Remember Job...even though his wife, told him to CURSE God and die....Job remained FAITHFUL, to the end...The bible is CLEAR God's wrath is NOT on God's people...however, as satan being the tool, and as it is through human governments and carnal nations, this is fulfilled...the POINT is, however, God's people, throughout christian history, whom remained faithful, NEVER applied that wrath to God, but KNEW it was through the working of satan, that God, allowed it.

Those whom apply it to God, especially when it falls on Christians are doing great damage to the name of OUR LORD.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Brother Mark]

First of all, I want to say AMEN to Alaska, and FEW!!!

I wonder how many pages this will get to before the ONE point is understood, lol?

God uses satan, as His tool to work His wrath, against His enemies.

God uses satan, as His tool to work His wrath, against His enemies.

Actually, God uses Satan to work his chastisement on his children. (1 Cor. 5). He used Israel's enemies to chastise her (Hab. and Jer. and Isaiah). However, he uses his children to deal with the enemy. Israel was used repeatedly to destroy nations.

In every case in the old covenant, where God sent a nation against another nation, it was a carnal nation.

No it wasn't. When Joshua took Canaan, they were not carnal. When Israel warred against Amalek, they were carnal for NOT destroying them completely.

David, a man after God's own heart was a man of war, BEFORE God convicted him of his wrong ways..and, was not even allowed to serve God, through the tabernacle, due to the blood he had shed.

He was a man of God while he was warring. We see that even Jesus led Joshua to war and will lead an army to war again in Rev.

[fewarechosen]

I'm curious, on a more personal level. If a criminal comes into your home, would you protect your children or watch while they harmed them? If you had opportunity to protect the innocent in whatever scenario, on the street a child is being abused by a criminal would you allow that to continue so you would not have to retaliate with the same violence to stop the criminal.

Is it not the same with war to protect the innocent and those unable to protect themselves? Are you guys who are so against war saying the stronger more able bodied of civilizations should turn their backs and say well.... every man for himself, your on your own, cant use violence or kill so guess your out of luck?

great question

me personally , im 35 yr old male. i dont want children because to me that is giving someone a death sentence.(that has nothing to do with anyone else having kids or anything like that-just letting you know where im coming from) so in turn i dont see it in my cards to be married ---nothing known for sure, i have a long life ahead maybe. one of the biggest reasons i would choose not to have a family is just for that reason, when all the persecution comes full tilt i will not have them to look after and if i do not burn with lust i will do well to not marry so i can fully attend to things of the lord.

now i fully believe that god can protect whover he wants. i have never been in a fight in my life, nor have i allowed a fight to happen in or around me (that i can think of) without breaking it up or helping too and not by punching someone or something like that. i once saw a man running from the cops i simply walked in his path took no aggresive stance he reached in his coat pocket pulled out a knife watched me stand there as he ran towards me flung it in the bushes and then got tackled by the cops because he had to go around me -- then i pointed the cops to where he threw his knife and i sat back down on the park bench, and the cops said thanks. now would i try to restrain someone who was going to hurt someone, sure - i dont see a problem with that.

now it makes me pause when i think well what would i do if its my sister neice whover is close to me in my flesh and someone was going to kill them -- i hesitate to speak because i fear tempting my lord-- he might just say well you said you would do this and now i will show you you cant. that being said i dont see myself doing nothing, for sure get in the way or try to stop him without killing him -- my actions themselves would witness christ to him. but i do believe god would instruct me in what to do in that situation, it might be as simple as him saying through me -- be gone satan there is no place for you here. i try to live a better life day by day and try to mortify my flesh and walk as christ so he will deliver me from situtions such as you speak.

people do get martyred and god does allow it and i think about that often, so when the devil sends men to come for me which every day seems more and more likely, i pray that i will be able to act as christ did and not curse my enemy but forgive him and pray for him with my dying breath.

for i seek to witness the spirit that he put inside me, and i do wish the turmoil of living to depart me i am not of this world nor do i seek to be part of it. and i pray god gives me the ability to do the right thing.

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

now as for war -- we already know god is allowing wars to happen and plans them to happen. the thing is us as people with the holy spirit do not have to take part in it.
we have a higher calling --we are to show those who are waging war what it means to be selfless. we are to be the light not the darkness --romans 13 says powers are put over us not that we are to be those powers. we are to lay down our life for our brother -never take his. our neighbor is us we are our neighbor, the muslim nations that our country is bombing that is my brother ishmeal, i pray he too will come to god. our country will fight the war even without all those with the holy spirit in armies and so on. there are many more without the spirit in our country than with, they will fight those wars and they will see how fruitless it is. let us the chosen of god wage the greater war against powers and principalities that those who do not know christ cant even fight --they will carry out wars of nations. we are the light my brothers if we do not shine who else will ?


i hope that helps answer the question dove

[Slug1]

g

now i fully believe that god can protect whover he wants.

This is the key fewarechosen... God does protect us... through avengers, again Romans 13:4.

That is the whole purpose of that scripture... God has given us the authority to avenge against evil with a sword (military forces and police forces) just as He's authorized us to battle satan directly.

As satan battles us indirectly through criminals (murderers, rapists, thieves, terrorists) we have the ability to protect ourselves. For criminals it's police forces and for large scale protection it's the military. We are authorized to swing that sword and since we're authorized then that means we are expected to use it.

Then when satan attacks us directly such as he does through demons and spiritual warfare we also have a "Sword" for that also and it's the Word of God and the power of Jesus Christ's name.

So when you say, "now i fully believe that god can protect whover he wants", don't think that that form of protection will NEVER come in the form of a soldier in full battlerattle and an M4 rifle ready to defend you... it sure can.

[Athanasius]

David, a man after God's own heart was a man of war, BEFORE God convicted him of his wrong ways..and, was not even allowed to serve God, through the tabernacle, due to the blood he had shed. Do we need to go back and reread all those post's and scriptures again? It appears to me that everytime a point is made for the truth of this matter, it is overlooked, and NO ONE gives a DIFFERENT way those contradictions can be interpretted.

Really... And the scripture verses for this are where?

[jewel4Christ]

Hi,

Ok, Before we try to prove that "Israel" of the flesh was not a spiritual nation, I want to show these points..on HOW God works His wrath, and through WHOM, and, to whom it is appointed, and why, and also...in posts to come, I will try to show why carnal warfare can get christians in trouble...not that it will cause us to lose salvation, or anything, but, "trouble".

First, let's look at a few verses that explain HOW God's wrath is fulfilled, from both the old testament, and the new.

A couple from the old:

2 ch 12:7

Now when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, "They have humbled themselves; therefore I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance. My wrath shall not be poured out on Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak.

Here, we see that God call's it HIS wrath, because it is His wrath, but, the thing we want to focus on in this post, is HOW it is accomplished.

By the hand of Shishak...whom was carnal.

Does God change?

No.

Another:

Ezra 5:12 But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.

Again, through the hand of a carnal king.




Ps 78:49 He cast on them the fierceness of His anger, Wrath, indignation, and trouble, By sending angels of destruction among them.

Evil spirits.


Isa 10
5 "Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.

God sends carnal nations against other carnal nations, to work His wrath.

Dan 11:36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

Another carnal king.

new covenant examples:

rom 9:

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." R33 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Vessels of wrath, are the enemies of God, always...he raises them up to show His power through them, to bring about His wrath, and they are vessels prepared for destruction. Does God change? No.

Rom 13:3 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

btw, verse 3 makes it CLEAR that it is NOT christiains whom work this wrath on God's enemies, that so many have taken rom 13:4, without reading the prior verse....FIRST...they have NO good works, they are workers of evil, that is WHY God can use them to fulfill His will,to begin with...and, he call's them "rulers", not christians...rulers of the darkness of this world, as written elsewhere.





That the word of God states very plainly that we all ONCE partook of, but, NOT any more:

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

James 1:20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

The bible makes it clear here, that it is through the "hand" of SATAN.

Rev 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

"she" is NOT God..but, a entity, that God uses to fulfill His wrath...evil men.






To whom is appointed the wrath of God?

Old covenant:


Ps 79:6 Pour out Your wrath on the nations that do not know You, And on the kingdoms that do not call on Your name.



Na 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

New covenant examples:

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

rom 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.



Col 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,


Rev 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."


to whom does wrath NOT fall?

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

1 Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.



1 Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


Now, how is wrath spoken of when it does fall on saints?

Old covenant:

Job 1:8
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

Job 1:22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

..and, here is a case where David, as a saved christian, whom had not yet learned to despise carnal warfare, had been attacked by an enemy..of God, Saul:

1 Sam 18:

10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand. 11 And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall with it. And David avoided out of his presence twice. 12 And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul. 13 Therefore Saul removed him from him, and made him his captain over a thousand; and he went out and came in before the people. 14 And David behaved himself wisely in all his ways; and the LORD was with him. 15 Wherefore when Saul saw that he behaved himself very wisely, he was afraid of him. 16 But all Israel and Judah loved David,

So, this shows that you can be saved, and still be a warrior, but, as we will see later in other posts, David learned over time to despise his warring ways, and repented...this however shows how God allowed a spirit over Saul, by the hand of SATAN, but, it only caused David to grow in grace and in truth.








New covenant:

Luke 22:31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to siftyou like wheat;

SATAN


Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible.

Always spoken of as from the hand of carnal men, and NEVER through the hands of God.

James 1:20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Well, this post is long enough....

more to come, later.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

This is the key fewarechosen... God does protect us... through avengers, again Romans 13:4.

Read verse 3... It will tell you who the avengers are..rulers of this world...the bible says, that the rulers of this world are not workers of good.
but, workers of evil..and, that is why God uses them for evil...but, in so doing, they do keep a common "good" to those whom obey the civil laws.

I am editing this because I have just read about 5 commentaries, for this verse, and I have not found ONE that even suggests that the "ruler" is OF the household of God...in fact, they all state very plainly to me that they are god's ministers to keep some type of civil control, and when that goes awry, they are his ministers to bring about correction, but no where in any of the 5 commentaries have I read that christians are to obey them in anything OTHER than civil laws, and in fact, a couple of them have stated very plainly that it is NOT talking about MORAL issues. WAR is a moral issue...it comes from LUST.

What occurred in the old covenant, was God working through men, to bring about His purposes at that time, for a CARNAL nation.

peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

wow janet good post, and very intesting cause i never fully looked at it that way.

another thing i just want to point out is romans 13 never says we are to be the ruling power --but we are put under it--- never does it say WE ARE IT