Jesus says no to war!

[fewarechosen]

[quote;1689350]

Hi Janet,

I hope you are feeling better today, last night you mentioned that you were very sad. So I hope today you are more cheerful.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your understanding of this scripture. You are reading it as saying that the government does evil works, when in fact what it is saying is that the government takes a stand AGAINST evil works. Further, if persons are doing good works, they do not have to be afraid of the government. But if one is doing evil works, then they have every reason to fear the government.

The government is not set up to be an evil institution, working evil works. It is set up to keep a peaceful environment so that the people who want to live good lives, can do so without fear of criminals and terrorists. It is there to help the good people resolve the differences that they have with each other, and to help the ignorant to learn wisdom.

hmm i cant agree -- that would be to say taht all governments on the earth are doing good.

thats to say that everyone germany had executed was doin bad -- christ was under government authority -- was the government right to kill him because he was doin something bad ?

see i think a big difference is coming up
why would i fear a criminal or evil doer ?

christ himself told me to fear no man

would you agree that some have greater faith than others ?
or do all men have the same amount of faith in god ?

[chal]

i see your point and its a good one, but look at it this way there is no land that isnt already claimed by a country -- so your gonna live under someones law

the whole point is you still try to tell the truth as you know it and live under the law of the land,

its like if i got drafted im still gonna go -- but i would still tell them look im not killing. its a matter of heart

if you buy anything ever -- you just supported mammon-- you just helped satan

thats why god looks to a mans heart, he knows what that man is thinking or wht he is supporting better than the man himself.

we are to love our enemy and give them food and drink -- so even if our enemy is our own country waging war when we pay taxes we are giving them food and drink.

so i hope that helps

chal > Yes, thank you and it does help clarify your position, which actually is a lot like my own.

Good post. The answers you get will depend on what side people come down on.

I'd like to add to this and say that Jesus knew fully well the Roman empire and their military. So, does give unto Caesar also mean serving in the military when called upon by Caesar to do so?

chal > Thanks for the response and for the thought provoking extention to it. I had not considered that angle, since the context was about paying taxes. I don't think that particular scripture alone could be used as hard evidence though, because of the context. If supporting scripture were added, that could be another matter. Sounds like I may have to do some research when time permits.

[EarlyCall]

chal > Yes, thank you and it does help clarify your position, which actually is a lot like my own.



chal > Thanks for the response and for the thought provoking extention to it. I had not considered that angle, since the context was about paying taxes. I don't think that particular scripture alone could be used as hard evidence though, because of the context. If supporting scripture were added, that could be another matter. Sounds like I may have to do some research when time permits.

Right. I agree. But it is worth asking if Jesus was speaking to a principle here or only taxes?

See, in situations like this, I have to ask myself what God knows and what He knows we know. Since God does not spell everything out for us. Intentionally I think.

So I ask questions. Were taxes the only thing Caesar required? If so, then surely that was the only thing Jesus was speaking to. But if not, then isn't Jesus' statement ambiguous? In spite of the context?

What did Jesus know? He knew what all that Caesar required. Might Jesus have been more specific then?

It is worth being cautious and better left in the end sometimes to simply not be sure than to think and make the claim it is so.

But to be sure, much of what we ae to understand - God never says. Sometimes, often I believe it is as much what God does not say as it is what He does say in a passage of scripture that we are to understand.

But I think your response shows wisdom.

[jewel4Christ]

[quote=RoadWarrior;1689365]

Hi Janet,

I hope you are feeling better today, last night you mentioned that you were very sad. So I hope today you are more cheerful.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your understanding of this scripture. You are reading it as saying that the government does evil works, when in fact what it is saying is that the government takes a stand AGAINST evil works. Further, if persons are doing good works, they do not have to be afraid of the government. But if one is doing evil works, then they have every reason to fear the government.

The government is not set up to be an evil institution, working evil works. It is set up to keep a peaceful environment so that the people who want to live good lives, can do so without fear of criminals and terrorists. It is there to help the good people resolve the differences that they have with each other, and to help the ignorant to learn wisdom.

I was referring to v. 3, not 4.

I agree that God can take what is evil/human governments, and bring about good.

The bible states that.

..and, I am not trying to get anyone to agree with me..I don't even believe I can.

Thanks for your time...and, concern. Yes, I am feeling better today.....

peaceandlove,

[evrgreenjhawk]

..and, I am not trying to ge anyone to agree with me..I don't even believe I can.

Thanks for your time.

peaceandlove,

It should not matter if anyone agrees with you or not. By you sharing your views, whether I agree or not, it does help to shape my views.
I have appreciated your knowledge and certainly respect your views.

Peace

[jewel4Christ]

"Generally speaking", is the key here.

True, God has ordained that governments exist over earthly nations.
And when referring to these powers as the ministers of God to execute wrath on evildoers, this is not saying these people are right with God individually.

Nebuchadnezzar was said to be God's servant because God was using him to execute wrath against his own people; God showing himself to hate evil no matter where it comes from. So Nebuchadnezzar was an unconscious servant of God, (God using him to fulfil His purposes.)

There was order in the Roman empire. Society there survived for a very long time, largely due to the rule of law.

Our society, like that of the Roman empire, has laws, some good and some not good. It was the Roman soldiers that were ordered to crucify Jesus, yet at the same time, laws existed that ensured order and peace to the general public.

So acknowledging the inferior kingdoms of the earth to have both good and bad laws, [contrary to Christs kingdom and law that is within the heart of the believers, Whose law is only good,] Christians are to be responsible to differentiate between the good and bad laws of the inferior kingdoms of the world and make sure that they only side with the policies of the Kingdom of God in those cases where there are conflicting laws. To take Romans 13 to be a declaration that there is not conflict between the the two sets of laws in certain cases is irresponsible: Just ask a Nazi soldier who was encouraged by his church to defend the fatherland.

Christ's kingdom is not of this world, if it was , then yes, his servants would fight. But it is not of this world and His will is that His servants are as ambassadors of His Kingdom declaring the absoluteness of the takeover of the worlds inferior and evil kingdoms by that greater kingdom that is within the believer. Their testimony is to confidently assure the takeover, as Noah confidently assured his world of the coming judgement.

Hamun, in the book of Esther, cited the Jews' laws as being diverse or adversarial to the laws of the secular nation of Persia. Mordechai was not going to bow to the secular laws that contradicted his faithfulness to the better law of God.

Likewise the NT is declared to be a better and greater law than the OT.
It is there that the former provision in the OT for executing capital punishnemt or vengeance has been replaced with the commandment to love our enemies and not execute vengeance.

Will the secular nations kill and execute judgement? Will God allow it even to fulfil his purposes? Will such laws ensure a measure of stability and order in those societies? The answer to these questions is yes.

Are Christians to obey the laws of these nations that contradict the NT teaching that his servants now are not to kill?
NO.

Amen, well said.

The bible is clear that there is only one nation that is "good/righteouss", and that is the nation or kingdom of God, and those whom adhere to the righteousness of God, by faith. The rest of the world. is called "wicked", and out of their flesh, they serve sin.

..as we all once walked.

A tree cannot bring forth two type of fruit, according to God's word, even though, God Himself can take what is NOT good and evil, and work it for good.


Math 13:38
and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

There are only two types of people..either saved, or evil.

We were all considered "evil", before we entered the kingdom of God..

..and, because Jesus is kind to evil men, He commands we walk in His ways.

Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

Anything less is not from God. A teaching that would teach that carnal governments are less than evil, even though God uses that evil, and turns it into good, is not from the bible.

As concerning what we are to learn from the old covenant, and the example of the carnal nation:

1 cor 10:6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

They craved evil things, like having a earthly king over them, as Pinky has already supplied scripture reference for.

Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,



This age is evil...we are all considered evil, until we submit to His kingdom.

Jesus commands:

1 thes 5:15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.


All people..not just those whom we don't have a problem loving.

heb 5:14 But solid food is for the R184 mature, who because of practice have their senses trained R185 to discern R186 good and evil.

1 Pet 3:11 "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

This is why Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers".

1 John 3:12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

How can they deny that they are not of satan, (human governments), when the bible makes it plain that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one....

..and, David, once he learned this, said this:



Ps 140:2 Who devise evil things in their hearts; They continually stir up wars.

Ps 144:10 Who gives salvation to kings, Who rescues David His servant from the evil sword.

peaceandlove,

janet


edit to fix typos.

[jewel4Christ]

It should not matter if anyone agrees with you or not. By you sharing your views, whether I agree or not, it does help to shape my views.
I have appreciated your knowledge and certainly respect your views.

Peace

Thank you, and likewise, I do also respect you and your points of view....

peaceandlove,

janet

[Alaska]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska
"Generally speaking", is the key here.

True, God has ordained that governments exist over earthly nations.
And when referring to these powers as the ministers of God to execute wrath on evildoers, this is not saying these people are right with God individually.

Nebuchadnezzar was said to be God's servant because God was using him to execute wrath against his own people; God showing himself to hate evil no matter where it comes from. So Nebuchadnezzar was an unconscious servant of God, (God using him to fulfil His purposes.)

There was order in the Roman empire. Society there survived for a very long time, largely due to the rule of law.

Our society, like that of the Roman empire, has laws, some good and some not good. It was the Roman soldiers that were ordered to crucify Jesus, yet at the same time, laws existed that ensured order and peace to the general public.

So acknowledging the inferior kingdoms of the earth to have both good and bad laws, [contrary to Christs kingdom and law that is within the heart of the believers, Whose law is only good,] Christians are to be responsible to differentiate between the good and bad laws of the inferior kingdoms of the world and make sure that they only side with the policies of the Kingdom of God in those cases where there are conflicting laws. To take Romans 13 to be a declaration that there is not conflict between the the two sets of laws in certain cases is irresponsible: Just ask a Nazi soldier who was encouraged by his church to defend the fatherland.

Christ's kingdom is not of this world, if it was , then yes, his servants would fight. But it is not of this world and His will is that His servants are as ambassadors of His Kingdom declaring the absoluteness of the takeover of the worlds inferior and evil kingdoms by that greater kingdom that is within the believer. Their testimony is to confidently assure the takeover, as Noah confidently assured his world of the coming judgement.

Hamun, in the book of Esther, cited the Jews' laws as being diverse or adversarial to the laws of the secular nation of Persia. Mordechai was not going to bow to the secular laws that contradicted his faithfulness to the better law of God.

Likewise the NT is declared to be a better and greater law than the OT.
It is there that the former provision in the OT for executing capital punishnemt or vengeance has been replaced with the commandment to love our enemies and not execute vengeance.

Will the secular nations kill and execute judgement? Will God allow it even to fulfil his purposes? Will such laws ensure a measure of stability and order in those societies? The answer to these questions is yes.

Are Christians to obey the laws of these nations that contradict the NT teaching that his servants now are not to kill?
NO.

Amen, well said.

The bible is clear that there is only one nation that is "good/righteouss", and that is the nation or kingdom of God, and those whom adhere to the righteousness of God, by faith. The rest of the world. is called "wicked", and out of their flesh, they serve sin.

..as we all once walked.

A tree cannot bring forth two type of fruit, according to God's word, even though, God Himself can take what is NOT good and evil, and work it for good.


Math 13:38
and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

There are only two types of people..either saved, or evil.

We were all considered "evil", before we entered the kingdom of God..

..and, because Jesus is king to evil men, He commands we walk in His ways.

Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world,evil. and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.

Anything less is not from God. A teaching that would teach that carnal governments are less than evil, even though God uses that evil, and turns it into good, is not from the bible.

As concerning what we are to learn from the old covenant, and the example of the carnal nation:

1 cor 10:6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

They craved evil things, like having a earthly king over them, as Pinky has already supplied scripture reference for.

Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,



This age is evil...we are all considered evil, until we submit to His kingdom.

Jesus commands:

1 thes 5:15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.


All people..not just those whom we don't have a problem loving.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practiceevil. have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

1 Pet 3:11 "HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD; HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.

This is why Jesus said, "blessed are the peacemakers".

1 John 3:12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

How can they deny that they are not of satan, (human governments), when the bible makes it plain that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one....

..and, David, once he learned this, said this:



Ps 140:2 Who devise evil things in their hearts; They continually stir up wars.

Ps 144:10 Who gives salvation to kings, Who rescues David His servant from the evil sword.

peaceandlove,

janet



peaceandlove,

janet

There is a jewel that shines yet it is despised by the reasoning of the world as the Master has said; that the world would hate it as it hated Him for the truth that is painful to the ways of the flesh. To the jewel that has jewels, I say, shine on sister.

[jewel4Christ]

There is a jewel that shines yet it is despised by the reasoning of the world as the Master has said; that the world would hate it as it hated Him for the truth that is painful to the ways of the flesh. To the jewel that has jewels, I say, shine on sister.

As the old saying goes, we are ALL diamonds in the rough...He is shining us all up, day by day.

...and, thanks for your kind words.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

wanted to clarify...

The government is not set up to be an evil institution, working evil works. It is set up to keep a peaceful environment so that the people who want to live good lives, can do so without fear of criminals and terrorists. It is there to help the good people resolve the differences that they have with each other, and to help the ignorant to learn wisdom.

I am referring to what is at the ROOT of the government...according to the word of God, originally, God never wanted mankind to have a human/earthly king over them.

We have to go back to the roots of where these things BEGAN, to see that they are "evil" entities.

Now, God has said, that He can take what is evil, and work it for GOOD, and that is what He has done with human governments..He works them for good, to be ministers of correction on those whom work evil. (that I agree with)

They of themselves, though have their root in "sin", because IF man back then would not of desired to have a earthly king, which the bible plainly states was through the desires of their EVIL heart, then, God never would of authorized human and earthly governments to begin with.

He says the same thing about "divorce".

It was not His original desire for men and woman to have a divorce cree.

God does NOT make robots out of us..He has allowed us to go our OWN way, as humans, which is the way that leads to destruction, though, and that is a fact.

peaceandlove,

janet

[Slug1]

Let me say this... God placed me in the Military before I was fully accepting of His love. In time, I rededicated myself to Jesus and began a relationship with Him... no more attitude of, "Yeah, I believe in God". Now I served God

My career took off after this, my men were always aware of my faith in God, even on the battlefields I fought on. Believe me when I say that God delivered me from many a dangerous situations when the bullets were flying and things went BOOM around me while I was up front leading my men. No scratch ever, in all the combats zones I fought in.

Then in 2007 I retired from the military and several months ago God gave me a ministry to help Christian's who serve in the military. I was led to people who are now members of the leadership of this ministry and there was no asking, they asked me how they could help me. This was an answer and in a way confirmation that this was God's plan and was His will for me.

God equipped me with 21+ years of service as an Infantryman in the US Army.

If it's wrong for a Christian to serve, why bless me and for that matter, TRUST me, with this ministry?

[fewarechosen]

Let me say this... God placed me in the Military before I was fully accepting of His love. In time, I rededicated myself to Jesus and began a relationship with Him... no more attitude of, "Yeah, I believe in God". Now I served God

My career took off after this, my men were always aware of my faith in God, even on the battlefields I fought on.

Then in 2007 I retired from the military and several months ago God gave me a ministry to help Christian's who serve in the military. I was led to people who are now members of the leadership of this ministry and there was no asking, they asked me how they could help me. This was an answer and in a way confirmation that this was God's plan and was His will for me.

God equipped me with 21+ years of service as an Infantryman in the US Army.

If it's wrong for a Christian to serve, why give me this ministry?

its not wrong at all, infact its probably a huge part of the factor why you know god. i dont want anyone to think im saying wow the people in military are godless killers or something. i totally respect them and they do good with their heart and want to protect people, a admirable trait.

let me ask you this, since the time you joined the military till now- did your depth of understanding of what it means to kill or save people grow ?

[Slug1]

its not wrong at all, infact its probably a huge part of the factor why you know god. i dont want anyone to think im saying wow the people in military are godless killers or something. i totally respect them and they do good with their heart and want to protect people, a admirable trait.

let me ask you this, since the time you joined the military till now- did your depth of understanding of what it means to kill or save people grow ?

Yes... as a matter of fact there were many opportunities to spread the gospel in Iraq to the citizens. Usually in there homes while drinking tea or eating food they prepared. I loved the food!

See that's the thing... when a combatant is shooting at you, and you tell me to show him the love of Jesus Christ I feel that you really don't understand the reality of the situation. A... Man... Is... Shooting... At... You... And... Intends... To... Kill... You... Your... Friends... And... Everyone... Else... Around... You! If... you... don't... stop... him... he... will... freely... come... to... the... US... and... kill... everyone... you... love... know... care for... and... praise... allah (satan)... for... his... victory!

God placed me (a sword) between him and you and I'm doing all I can to stop him from turning the entire world into muslims who worship allah (satan).

You do realize that IS THE PURPOSE for this war, don't you?? God wants to prevent this!!!

Just as it was in WWII when satan used Germany to exterminate God's People... the Jews, God rallied up the world to defeat this effort by satan to thwart God's purpose of the Israeli people... you do understand that... right? Pearl Harbor was to WAKE US UP and get us back online with His will!!!!

Now, satan has bigger plans to thwart God's plans for those that worship God... this time satan plans to just over run the entire world with people who put faith in a false god (allah=satan) and to those who are in the way... Christian nations!!!... he plans to just kill them off leaving nothing but those who will worship allah. 9/11 was to WAKE US UP and get us back online with His will!!!!

So, while some Christian's preach safely from their home, behind computers in the comfort of their house... other Christian's and non-Christians for that matter are providing this safety. They are also playing a part in God's efforts to ensure satan doesn't have his way with the world "before" it's time for Jesus to return. Soldiers are serving God at this moment in our history just as we've always... even if they don't know it, or even care about it. For me... I served God this way and have faith in Him while I served.

If we didn't fight back in WWII then we'd all be German by now and not one Jew left on this earth. What good did your food and drinks stations do then?

If we don't fight now then we'll all be dead OR worshiping allah and then what? What does Jesus have to return to? What good did your food and drink stations do?

So, we'll remain obedient to God and FIGHT, to hold satan off until Jesus is to return.

[jewel4Christ]

Hi,

First of all, I admire you. Just by reading your words, I can tell that you have a true heart for the Lord. It is just that I believe God took a evil situation, and worked it for good..through YOU.

That does not mean that the war was NOT a evil situation, it means it was an evil situation.


God takes evil, and works good in it....and, that is what I believe He did through you.

God placed me (a sword) between him and you and I'm doing all I can to stop him from turning the entire world into muslims who worship allah (satan).

The problem here however, is that the usa also worships a god of their own..their own belly.

IF they are not christians. There is no difference between that idol, and the god of the muslims.

What all need is JESUS.

peaceandlove, janet

[Slug1]

Hi,

First of all, I admire you. Just by reading your words, I can tell that you have a true heart for the Lord. It is just that I believe God took a evil situation, and worked it for good..through YOU.

That does not mean that the war was NOT a evil situation, it means it was an evil situation.


God takes evil, and works good in it....and, that is what I believe He did through you.



The problem here however, is that the usa also worships a god of their own..their own belly.

IF they are not christians. There is no difference between that idol, and the god of the muslims.

What all need is JESUS.

peaceandlove, janet

Just like Samson, we don't have to be perfect to be used by God. We just have to be chosen and do it to the best of our ability. When we aren't, we get a boost to get us to do it... 9/11 today... loss of his eyes in Samson's case.