Is "democracy" the beast government?

[ProjectPeter]

Go reread this thread.

I don't have time to go over it again....

peaceandlove,

janet

I've read it a couple of times trying to put this puzzle together. Problem is... you have pieces that just don't fit.

[pinky]

So far... no one has even closely shown... using anything other than opinion... that the beast is a system of government.

Personally, I think the beast will be a mortal man, ie king, who comes in his own name.

However, he will have a 'system', both religious and political, which he will use to subdue the nations......for a short time.

[ProjectPeter]

I think it is the church that is confusing the two. My stance is that you cannot serve both, in spiritual things, and the church has allowed that leavening to sneak into the church.

..and, YES, God does use human governments to fulfill His will....I have said that many times...yet, if you are in the kingdom of God, you have a higher calling, and cannot serve in areas pertaining to spiritual matters that go against God, and His word....LOVE, that is.

When you do, you are in error.

Love does not harm his/her enemies..

..and, because the church has lost sight of how God fulfills His will to the disobedient, (through their OWN reaping and sowing), because they have been taught ERROR, many have mixed the old and new covenants on spiritual things.



peaceandlove,

janet

Okay... Again though, without getting into just another thing on the war which seems you and others are going out of your way to do.... you are mixing passages about the government (in place by God with nothing telling believers to KEEP OUT) and His Prophets and Shepherds. Again... it seems like just another misuse of Scripture because you are trying to apply passages applicable to the church and make them applicable to Presidents and or Kings of nations.

[ProjectPeter]

Is those who purposefully choose to go fight in an earthy war which is supported by the government{which is the anti-Christ,if you read from the begining of this thread}, so it is very much part of this thread.

What i see in this thread is that; we are shown how to avoid the anti-Christ.The anti-Christ is the government.Any one fighting war for the anti-Christ, is not fighting the spiritual war in the kingdom of Christ.
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Okay... let me be a bit more firm. This thread is about explaining how the beast government is democracy. It is not going to be another anti-war thread. There are plenty of those and it seems we have a run from folks here making that their sole purpose in being here. As the Admin of this section of this board... I'm making it clear and trumping what you think the thread is going to be about. Simple enough?

[ProjectPeter]

Personally, I think the beast will be a mortal man, ie king, who comes in his own name.

However, he will have a 'system', both religious and political, which he will use to subdue the nations......for a short time.

Well certainly the beast will have a "system" just like he is likely to have an airplane and a car. But that is not what is being said thusfar by the OP. It certainly isn't going to be a democratic one though. He'll be much more in control than that... the one that and think of it... He proclaims himself as "God"... not much hint of democracy from such as that and I'd think that should stand the test of simple common sense. If the last beast is a government "system" then I want to know what Scripturae shows us where "systems of government" are cast into the lake of fire? I've yet to see any such Scripture as that but I just missed it along the way. As of yet though... it's not been shown.

[jewel4Christ]

Where is that Bible passage that tells us that this is going to be what destroys them?

First let us begin a foundation, ok?..truth is built on a foundation.

1 john 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


We know that while Jesus was here in the flesh, and was God, so this is speaking of "seeing God" as HE IS...in His full glory...for God is spirit.

With that foundation,

we can then build on it...as we do here:

1 Tim 6:16

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Not in God's full glory...for we must be "changed" as the bible states in order to go before His presence in full glory, and that is why christians are changed at the last trump...so, they can go into the presence of God.

Yet, the WORLD will not be changed, and, they will not be able to withstand His glory, although every eye will see Him, it will only be for a few seconds, or so...(the word does not give a exat time), yet it does make it clear that they will be destroyed by the brilliance of His coming!

We read that here:


2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:






ps 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

..for He is a CONSUMING FIRE.

Dan 9: 3

Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.


Heb 12:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Flesh cannot be in the presence of His HOLINESS and continue to live.

The bible makes it clear.

Some will say, "well, see God kills people".

To that I would say, God did not lift a finger.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

News flash... I think someone pointed it out already. Not even the US is a true democracy nor was it established as one. You seem to not be taking any of that into consideration.

I take all things into consideration. The democracy I am speaking of is what is present in the world today, and yes, what the usa is spreading, even out of their own mouths. Did you read the article quotes from one of the heads of this nation? Condalisa

It does not matter how you define democracy, when I use the word, I mean it in the way they use it.

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Building a world of hope, prosperity and peace is difficult. As we move forward, America's relations with the world's global powers will be critical. In Russia, we see that the path to democracy is uneven and that its success is not yet assured. Yet recent history shows that we can work closely with Russia on common problems. And as we do so, we will continue to press the case for democracy, and we will continue to make clear that the protection of democracy in Russia is vital to the future of U.S.-Russia relations. In Asia, we have moved beyond the false assumption that it is impossible to have good relations with all of Asia's powers. Our Asian alliances have never been stronger -- and we will use that strength to help secure the peace and prosperity of the region. Japan, South Korea, and Australia are key partners in our efforts to deter common threats and spur economic growth. We are building a candid, cooperative and constructive relationship with China that embraces our common interests but still recognizes our considerable differences about values. The United States is cooperating with India, the world's largest democracy, across a range of economic and security issues. This, even as we embrace Pakistan as a vital ally in the war on terror, and a state in transition toward a more moderate and democratic future. In our own neighborhood, we are cooperating closely with Canada and Mexico, and working to realize the vision of a fully democratic hemisphere, bound by common values and free trade

In these momentous times, American diplomacy has three great tasks. First, we will unite the community of democracies in building an international system that is based on our shared values and the rule of law. Second, we will strengthen the community of democracies to fight the threats to our common security and alleviate the hopelessness that feeds terror. And third, we will spread freedom and democracy throughout the globe. That is the mission that President Bush has set for America in the world -- and the great mission of American diplomacy today.


wow peter great point , about this not being a democracy --- it shows you how misguided our government is when the very leaders call it a democracy , how lost are they

Exactly my point. 'When I use the term, I mean it in how they speak it out of their own mouths, not in how someone else describes the word.'

peaceandlove,

janet

[pinky]

Hi Pinky,

Yes, I agree...there are many. However, I do see that there is this huge push through "democracy" to spread this beastly system. Consider:

A few clips from Condalisa.....in her recent speach:

The bible is clear that those whom preach "hope" for this world, are deceived..it is doomed to destruction, because it is of a fallen, and sinful state.

I believe it is democracy that is behind the push of man's last chance at this FALSE hope..

Another quote:


They work in vain!

..and, the walls, came tumbling down...and, the walls, came tumbling, tumbling....(they don't realise that God is not going to be mocked...and, the book of Daniel speaks to how this will be done, by FORCE, through a false peace, and by spreading a false hope.)

Unless they repent, they shall ALL likewise perish. Building Babylon up again, has been going on for a long time.

Now, as I said, the bible states very clearly that those whom build "hope" on anything OTHER than Jesus Christ will be shown that their work and toil is in VAIN.

Christians are going to have to make a stand someday, to either stand with Jesus and HIS kingdom, or to stand with this world and it's..and, when you are a christian, and you speak the truth in love, and, those whom hear you do NOT yet understand, they are offended. That is a fact.

I could post many other articles, and news sources that are saying these same things..Democracy is being spread, in the guise of a false hope, and a false peace, and it WILL be shown for what it is.

This is NOT my opinion. I don't know how anyone whom is a christian could deny what is right in front of their face.

peaceandlove,

janet

Hi sis.

I agree with so much of what you are saying.

However, I see this 'democracy' (so called) that is being brought to other nations by force .................. in it's truest philosophical/religious/legalistic sense.......... is talmudism.

(But that is a bit of a long and involved subject that usually causes problems when trying to disscuss it openly.)


Also, I think how a person views the REASONS for these wars can make it difficult to find common ground on this subject. For instance, there are still some people who genuinely believe that America's war effort is noble and just.............then there of those of us who see it quite differently.

Love you Janet,
pinky

[fewarechosen]

what happens when enough muslims come to a democracy , then say ok we dont want you worshipping as christians anymore.

then watch how the tune changes, and everyone who supports a democracy will instantly, we cant have that , they cant stop our religion. never even stopping to think that the very system is set up to fail that way, there are more non christians than there will ever be christians, and they chip away slowley and surely, freedom of religion -- wrong , to say it is , is to say god wants someone to worship false gods, gay marraige -- wrong.
on and on.

so some will side with government and some will side with god- always has been, always will be.

[jewel4Christ]

Yes, our country is pretty much divided on what kind of government we really have - Republic (Republicans) or Democracy (Democrats.)

My personal view on why democracy/Republic has been successful in some countries, is that it is successful when it is welded to Christian principles. As Christian principles erode, so also does the value of democracy.

As democracy is set up in Muslim countries, we do need to be aware that the values of the peoples in those countries are different from ours, and that people vote their values.

My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?

The communist style government that is creeping in?

The Islamic style that is being forced on peoples in other countries?

Anarchy, such as is destroying nations in Africa?

Or do you have something else in mind?

I think that what christians really need to be aware of is that God's ways are not man's ways, and His moral ways are not anything like the church upholds today..especially since apostacy began way back in the days of Paul, as he said...one would have to wonder how far off it is by now..eh?


LOVE...for God, and love for neighbor, and the bible says that INCLUDES your enemies..you don't here that in the pulpits today.....

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

Are mostly wrong.And many of them support an earthly war.
Though she may have overlooked a few areas, which still need to be clarified, she is the closest to how we as Christians need to be prepared for in the NOW!

A point I'd like to make regarding those who follow the error of subjecting themselves to the government in order to injure others.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
This is a very impotant verse Re. the sword.

Notice too;Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

He does not say we{Christians} beareth the sword but the government.
Christ says;Mt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Also, this is found in Rom 13.Let us view word, fufilled, and whole!

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Cor 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

AMEN..how could it be any clearer?

peaceandlove,

janet

[ProjectPeter]

First let us begin a foundation, ok?..truth is built on a foundation.

1 john 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


We know that while Jesus was here in the flesh, and was God, so this is speaking of "seeing God" as HE IS...in His full glory...for God is spirit.

With that foundation,

Not so fast though on this "that foundation" thing. What you say here can be taken several ways and I won't agree to it just on what you have here.

What has this to do with the return of Jesus? You do know that while Jesus was God and one with God... Jesus is still not the Father physically. If you believe otherwise then we'll have a problem with this foundation.

[jewel4Christ]

So far... no one has even closely shown... using anything other than opinion... that the beast is a system of government.

Most likely because that is not what this thread is about, anyway.

The beast is something other than a system of government, my thread is about how the beast is using this system..not that it is IT.

peaceandlove,

janet

[pinky]

Well certainly the beast will have a "system" just like he is likely to have an airplane and a car. But that is not what is being said thusfar by the OP. It certainly isn't going to be a democratic one though. He'll be much more in control than that... the one that and think of it... He proclaims himself as "God"... not much hint of democracy from such as that and I'd think that should stand the test of simple common sense. If the last beast is a government "system" then I want to know what Scripturae shows us where "systems of government" are cast into the lake of fire? I've yet to see any such Scripture as that but I just missed it along the way. As of yet though... it's not been shown.

Speaking for myself, I see the 'democracy', so called, as being a vehicle toward ushering in the kingdom of the beast. There are other 'vehicles' as well, ie, political and religious 'systems'.

However, I do believe that 'democracy' is playing her role too.