Is "democracy" the beast government?

[jewel4Christ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPeter
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.

Thank you. Finally, somebody mentions some Scripture to back up their case.

Did he delete the scripture references ?

peaceandlove,

janet

[quiet dove]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.

Did he delete the scripture references ?

peaceandlove,

janet

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[BroRog]

I hate to say it but I do agree with karl marx on this. I tend to think that democracy is a stepping stone toward global communism.

I see that the western, 'democratic' nations have become 'socialized'......even the good ole US of A. We are all under the sphere of the beast system.

Look at what the bolsheviks did to Christian Russia in the Revolution of 1917. This is what they want to do to us too.............and seem to be succeeding.

Remember Pinky, Communism is only one form of socialism.

[BroRog]

If democracy is so evil, why are there more Christians in democratic nations than in non democratic nations?

I wouldn't say democracy is evil in every case. Democracy can either be good or bad depending whether it has proper safeguards against abuse. The founding fathers made democracy safe for the United States by setting up certain safeguards. For instance, they split the power up into three parts: the legislative branch, the judicial branch, and the executive branch. And they made each branch responsible to the others through checks and balances. In addition, they wrote into the constitution a "Bill of rights" to protect the rights of the individual.

The worst form of democracy is mob rule. For instance, a lynch mob is a democracy with only one dissenting vote. Democracies need to be structured to protect the individual against the majority.

But even our democracy has dangers. For instance, Tocqueville wrote that a democracy can degenerate into an oligarchy in which a select few elitist rule the country by fiat. Right now, in my opinion, The United States Supreme Court is on the verge of doing just that. It takes vigilance and commitment to keep a democracy from degenerating.

[jewel4Christ]

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?



Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 "Come, R967 assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat R968 the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 free men and slaves, and small R970 and great."

19 And I saw the R971 beast and the R972 kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 prophet who performed R975 the signs in R976 F227 his presence, by which he deceived R977 those who had received the mark R978 of the beast and those who worshiped R979 his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 of fire R981 which burns with brimstone. F228 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 from the mouth of Him who sat R983 on the horse, and all R984 the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

peaceandlove,

janet

[ProjectPeter]

I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 "Come, R967 assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat R968 the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 free men and slaves, and small R970 and great."

19 And I saw the R971 beast and the R972 kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 prophet who performed R975 the signs in R976 F227 his presence, by which he deceived R977 those who had received the mark R978 of the beast and those who worshiped R979 his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 of fire R981 which burns with brimstone. F228 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 from the mouth of Him who sat R983 on the horse, and all R984 the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

peaceandlove,

janet

Problem is... the very passage you posted calls the beast a "him" and not an "it" as you present it.

[jewel4Christ]

Problem is... the very passage you posted calls the beast a "him" and not an "it" as you present it.

Hi PP, I understand that, but this is a symbolic book, and it also calls the "church" for example a "she", and the unbelievers amongst them a "whore"...as do other new covenant books, when referring to a symbol of something. The bible is full of this type of thing, when speaking of prophecy.

I just gave scripture that shows that there are alot more than TWO beings going into the lake of fire.



So, I don't think that is any different.

I would like your opinion of what the beast is then?

peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?



Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

yea i agree with you there , or else hes gonna be really easy to spot lol

[Literalist-Luke]

Who is "we"?

“We” are the citizens who voted for the representatives who form our government, who voted to ratify the Constitution that forms our government, and who voted to place the people in office who are currently serving. The government we have is one that was elected by the people. Nothing has been forced on us that we did not choose for ourselves. That’s a very sad fact, considering the state our country is in today, but it’s still true.

My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.

It’s not just my opinion. You’re also arguing with the Bible and the apostle Paul. The Golden Rule applies to individual people, not nations. Otherwise, what was Paul speaking of in Romans 13:4 when he said “rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” If a nation that is planning to murder another nation’s citizens by an act of terrorism isn’t a “wrongdoer” then what on earth qualifies as a wrongdoer? That is not just my opinion. That is a quote from the Bible.

They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.

It’s not hard to follow at all, I understand exactly what you are suggesting. You’re saying that “democracy” (which does not exist in the world at this moment because there is no true democratic government anywhere, including the USA) crushes people underfoot and “tramples” them. But then you offer absolutely no explanation about how “democracy” accomplishes this. Sure, sure you say that “democracy” is “forcing those whom are not democratic to submit”, no doubt in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan (which I’m having to guess at since you never answered HisLeast’s question about that), but how is that any worse than, for instance, Germany invading Poland, France, Norway, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Holland…….

I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.

From Zechariah 14 & Revelation 14 –

“ This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. Blood flowed out, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 180 miles.”

Not “carnal” warfare? Perhaps you could explain the difference. This sure sound to me like it’s going to be worse than the worst poison gas attack that man has ever launched. This sounds almost like a nuclear attack. I agree that Jesus will be attacking with the “sword that come out of His mouth”, but the results are still going to be pretty durn bloody.

You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?

No, you’re right, Satan will be leading the forces of man at Armageddon, through the Antichrist. That doesn’t negate the fact that God/Jesus will be using the most violent warfare in the history of the world when this happens. And that violence will be directed at the humans gathered there, as you see in the Zechariah/Revelation quote above.

Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.

Very true, but then what are the results of that judgment? Violence against the forces of evil. Evil can’t be eradicated by being nice to it. It has to be exterminated. And that is precisely what will happen at Armageddon.

[Literalist-Luke]

I should clarify that I'm not trying to be "pro-America" here. The Bible says that every single nation in the world is going to come against Israel and God at the end, and that includes America. We are nothing special in the Bible and I don't consider us "superior" to any other nation. My point in this thread is that "democracy" is not the fourth beast. I don't care if you're talking about America, British, French, German, Canadian, or Martian democracy. It's all the same. (It's also all NOT a democracy, but rather a "republic".) And it's all NOT the fourth beast. The fourth beast is a specific government/empire, regardless of what form(s) it takes. (And it ain't Rome, by the way.)

[Literalist-Luke]

In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"? The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

The beast is a government that is symbolized with ten heads and seven horns, among other things. At the end, that government will be headed by one man, the Antichrist. He will be thrown in the Lake of Fire along with his sidekick, the False Prophet.

[quiet dove]

In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?

Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

Yes, I see the Beast as a him. We have the ten horns explained in Revelation so we know that the description is symbolic of the nature, character, power, government or world powers are what is described by this beast. This beast is used like in Daniel to describe the powers/kingdoms of the world. As nothing to do with describing physically the wicked leader that those kings will submit their authority to.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

Also, a little further in the previous verses I quoted, we see that not all the unjust of mankind who are killed with the sword are at that time also thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

A little later in Rev 20 we are given more information about "the rest"
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

[Literalist-Luke]

I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 "Come, R967 assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat R968 the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 free men and slaves, and small R970 and great."

19 And I saw the R971 beast and the R972 kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 prophet who performed R975 the signs in R976 F227 his presence, by which he deceived R977 those who had received the mark R978 of the beast and those who worshiped R979 his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 of fire R981 which burns with brimstone. F228 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 from the mouth of Him who sat R983 on the horse, and all R984 the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 - "That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

[Athanasius]

The Beast and democracy? Of course not...
Take one of Histories lessons... When you remove God, you wind up with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pat, Mao Tse-tung... The Beast is tyranny.

And by the way, brush up on 1984...