Is "democracy" the beast government?

[jewel4Christ]

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.

It’s not just my opinion. You’re also arguing with the Bible and the apostle Paul.

I suppose you have a right to that opinion.

The Golden Rule applies to individual people, not nations. Otherwise, what was Paul speaking of in Romans 13:4 when he said “rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” If a nation that is planning to murder another nation’s citizens by an act of terrorism isn’t a “wrongdoer” then what on earth qualifies as a wrongdoer? That is not just my opinion. That is a quote from the Bible.

How can the golden rule apply ONLY to individuals, for CHRISTIANS?

What you are then saying would go against the whole concept...how can you apply the golden rule to one person, and not all? How do you pick and choose to whom you would apply the golden rule? That does not make sense..to me.

Rom 13 is about how earthly governments were established by God, because of the evil in man's heart. We must read the bible in context, and He uses those earthly governments to fulfill a very particular part of His plan...which is fulfilled through reaping and sowing. For example, if a person is in power in an earthly kingdom, and he decides to take vengeance on his enemy, the bible says vengeance begets MORE vengeance, so likewise, God is held true, while every man is a liar..and, in the outcome, that same person whom sowed violence, SHALL reap it. Would you want to argue with God?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.

It’s not hard to follow at all, I understand exactly what you are suggesting. You’re saying that “democracy” (which does not exist in the world at this moment because there is no true democratic government anywhere, including the USA) crushes people underfoot and “tramples” them. But then you offer absolutely no explanation about how “democracy” accomplishes this. Sure, sure you say that “democracy” is “forcing those whom are not democratic to submit”, no doubt in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan (which I’m having to guess at since you never answered HisLeast’s question about that), but how is that any worse than, for instance, Germany invading Poland, France, Norway, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Holland…….

All those you just mentioned are either turning to democracy, or are already among it.

Do some research..bro.

I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

I don't think you understand reaping and sowing...this world has been on that course since God proclaimed it..and, violence produces more violence, and Jesus said, nation would come against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and all because they sow discord amongst each other.

I suppose Jesus was wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.

From Zechariah 14 & Revelation 14 –

“ This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

Do you see the bold? This is how it is accomplished, and the plague is the nuclear warheads...does Jesus bomb mankind?

Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. Blood flowed out, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 180 miles.”

Not “carnal” warfare?

Is JUDAH Jesus?

Perhaps you could explain the difference. This sure sound to me like it’s going to be worse than the worst poison gas attack that man has ever launched. This sounds almost like a nuclear attack. I agree that Jesus will be attacking with the “sword that come out of His mouth”, but the results are still going to be pretty durn bloody.

It is a nuclear attack. Jesus works His wrath on man, by letting them hang themselves, for He cannot be tempted with evil, as the bible states.

When He returns, He will fight as in the day of battle, with the TRUE sword, and all men shall see Him.

We need to understand, in mho that His sword is NOT a earthly type sword, it is the WORD OF GOD.....and, the bible says IT is even sharper than any earthly type...it cuts to the soul...but, that is symbolic language, it means, it brings forth judgement of the soul.

So, we disagree..


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?

No, you’re right, Satan will be leading the forces of man at Armageddon, through the Antichrist. That doesn’t negate the fact that God/Jesus will be using the most violent warfare in the history of the world when this happens. And that violence will be directed at the humans gathered there, as you see in the Zechariah/Revelation quote above.

If satan is leading it, he is the one responsible...God allows him to do this, to fulfill His will/judgments..for He personally cannot be tempted with evil....I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.

Very true, but then what are the results of that judgment? Violence against the forces of evil. Evil can’t be eradicated by being nice to it. It has to be exterminated. And that is precisely what will happen at Armageddon.

Yep, violence breeds more violence, but let's not say that God is a God of violence, He simply sits back and watches it all......knowing from the beginning that is the way man would go...so, He set it in motion anyway, and proclaimed, "every man shall reap what he sows" as a warning to us all, but today, no one seems to think He meant it.

It is MAN that is sowing the violence, bro..

Man will reap it, and destruction will come...He is coming to destroy them that ARE destroying the earth, with their manmade rules...He will destroy them how? With the BRIGHTNESS of HIS COMING.

That is what it DOES say.

Let's not add to it.

Man cannot SEE GOD AND LIVE..remember?

peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

someone posted this
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

the only difference i see - is democracy comes like a lamb, and convinces people its a good thing, it uses a little war and a whole bunch of sugar to make it seem sweet - the people being taken over by it like it -- they say wow we get to fornicate with earthly goods even better than before --cooool

evil is a house divided- if it wasnt it would stand

evil attacks evil all day

but good does not attack good

[jewel4Christ]

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 - "That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

I believe that is the false prophet....but, includes all false prophets.

peaceandlove,

janet

[quiet dove]

The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.

[jewel4Christ]

someone posted this
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

the only difference i see - is democracy comes like a lamb, and convinces people its a good thing, it uses a little war and a whole bunch of sugar to make it seem sweet - the people being taken over by it like it -- they say wow we get to fornicate with earthly goods even better than before --cooool

evil is a house divided- if it wasnt it would stand

evil attacks evil all day

but good does not attack good

peaceandlove,

janet

[jewel4Christ]

The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.

Hi Quietdove,

The world leader is satan, the god of this present world. He influences man to exalt the flesh...that is his "game"...however, I am not against an idea that there could come an endtime "antichrist", who sits in the temple of God, (the true one that is, not some already apostacised stone one), and exalts himself before God and God's people. It could happen....but, men do it everyday, just by refusing to humble themselves before the Lord...and, it is worse when you are a christian.

We all do this from time to time, but through Christ we are learning humilty...the difference is when it is done in ignorance, God can forgive, but if it is done willfully, there remains no more sacrifice for sins...for that type of person has recrucified Christ, as we read.

Satan gives his authority to democracy because by his authority, as the god of this present evil world, he rules over the kingdoms of men.

ALL of them, NOT just the one's that look evil to us, but the one's that speak as a lamb, but inside they are ravaging wolves....as Jesus said. (I am not speaking of an individual, I am speaking of the entity we call "democracy"..some forms of government look bad through and through, and some look good on the OUTside, but inside they are white washed tombs, and this is the TYPE Jesus warned us about...Don't you wonder why?


peaceandlove,

janet

[fewarechosen]

The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.

just to put 2 cents in -- satan who is the father of the wicked , could have all his wicked vote a certain way thus he is giving authority to a democracy.

the wicked do thier fathers works also

[jewel4Christ]

Hi quietdove,

Yes, I see the Beast as a him. We have the ten horns explained in Revelation so we know that the description is symbolic of the nature, character, power, government or world powers are what is described by this beast.

Revelation says the ten horns are ten kings..?

This beast is used like in Daniel to describe the powers/kingdoms of the world. As nothing to do with describing physically the wicked leader that those kings will submit their authority to.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

I am not understanding what you are saying, because it says plainly the ten horns are ten kings..am I misunderstanding you?

Thanks in advance.

Also, a little further in the previous verses I quoted, we see that not all the unjust of mankind who are killed with the sword are at that time also thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

A little later in Rev 20 we are given more information about "the rest"
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

I don't want to derail this thread about 'the rest of the dead', so..sorry, I brought that up in my last post.

There are varying differences of opinions as to whom the "rest of the dead" symbolise, is what I am trying to say.

Back to the "beast".

I kinda feel like it cannot be a "he", literally, as in one person, because the description says the ten horns are ten kings.

peaceandlove,

janet

[HisLeast]

Huh? The Cold War is over.Iraq, Afghanistan

Jeeze... how many times do I have to explain this? She asked which government is being FORCED on people all over the world. The answer is simple: communism. Iraq was a democracy (though not a very good one) before we ever got there. Afghanistan... well... whatever. But compare that to the 1.5 Billlion Chinese under communist rule, millions of North Koreans, millions of central Americans, and those living in its shadow (south Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, segments of Eastern Europe). Its almost laughable to say that Democracy is being spread at the tip of the sword. It just isn't.

[HisLeast]

Additionally, if the Antichrist is a system of government, specifically democracy, does that mean that the Antichrist existed before Christ? The Greeks were practicing democratic forms of governance prior to the birth of Christ.

[ProjectPeter]

Hi PP, I understand that, but this is a symbolic book, and it also calls the "church" for example a "she", and the unbelievers amongst them a "whore"...as do other new covenant books, when referring to a symbol of something. The bible is full of this type of thing, when speaking of prophecy.

I just gave scripture that shows that there are alot more than TWO beings going into the lake of fire.



So, I don't think that is any different.

I would like your opinion of what the beast is then?

peaceandlove,

janet

But look elsewhere.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Now Paul had ample opportunity in this non-symbolic writing to tell us about a system or "them", "they", "whatever." His non-symbolic language sounds pretty much like a man eh?

[ProjectPeter]

yea i agree with you there , or else hes gonna be really easy to spot lol

Jesus too should have been easy to spot but God blinded them. Bible says the same about folks in the last days They too will be blind and not see.

[ProjectPeter]

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.

I suppose you have a right to that opinion.

How can the golden rule apply ONLY to individuals, for CHRISTIANS?

What you are then saying would go against the whole concept...how can you apply the golden rule to one person, and not all? How do you pick and choose to whom you would apply the golden rule? That does not make sense..to me.

Rom 13 is about how earthly governments were established by God, because of the evil in man's heart. We must read the bible in context, and He uses those earthly governments to fulfill a very particular part of His plan...which is fulfilled through reaping and sowing. For example, if a person is in power in an earthly kingdom, and he decides to take vengeance on his enemy, the bible says vengeance begets MORE vengeance, so likewise, God is held true, while every man is a liar..and, in the outcome, that same person whom sowed violence, SHALL reap it. Would you want to argue with God?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.

All those you just mentioned are either turning to democracy, or are already among it.

Do some research..bro.



I don't think you understand reaping and sowing...this world has been on that course since God proclaimed it..and, violence produces more violence, and Jesus said, nation would come against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and all because they sow discord amongst each other.

I suppose Jesus was wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.

Do you see the bold? This is how it is accomplished, and the plague is the nuclear warheads...does Jesus bomb mankind?

Is JUDAH Jesus?



It is a nuclear attack. Jesus works His wrath on man, by letting them hang themselves, for He cannot be tempted with evil, as the bible states.

When He returns, He will fight as in the day of battle, with the TRUE sword, and all men shall see Him.

We need to understand, in mho that His sword is NOT a earthly type sword, it is the WORD OF GOD.....and, the bible says IT is even sharper than any earthly type...it cuts to the soul...but, that is symbolic language, it means, it brings forth judgement of the soul.

So, we disagree..


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?

If satan is leading it, he is the one responsible...God allows him to do this, to fulfill His will/judgments..for He personally cannot be tempted with evil....I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ
Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.

Yep, violence breeds more violence, but let's not say that God is a God of violence, He simply sits back and watches it all......knowing from the beginning that is the way man would go...so, He set it in motion anyway, and proclaimed, "every man shall reap what he sows" as a warning to us all, but today, no one seems to think He meant it.

It is MAN that is sowing the violence, bro..

Man will reap it, and destruction will come...He is coming to destroy them that ARE destroying the earth, with their manmade rules...He will destroy them how? With the BRIGHTNESS of HIS COMING.

That is what it DOES say.

Let's not add to it.

Man cannot SEE GOD AND LIVE..remember?

peaceandlove,

janet

That sword Jesus wields... the end result will be a lot of dead folk. Lots of them. He's not wielding the "Word." This sword slays men.

[ProjectPeter]

I believe that is the false prophet....but, includes all false prophets.

peaceandlove,

janet

And where is the false prophet described such as this? And Paul certainly isn't speaking of "all false prophets" in that letter. It is a very specific subject matter.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


Paul is clearly talking about the last days and slaying this joker. This is a very specific subject he is speaking of.... the last days.

[jewel4Christ]

Jeeze... how many times do I have to explain this? She asked which government is being FORCED on people all over the world. The answer is simple: communism. Iraq was a democracy (though not a very good one) before we ever got there. Afghanistan... well... whatever. But compare that to the 1.5 Billlion Chinese under communist rule, millions of North Koreans, millions of central Americans, and those living in its shadow (south Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, segments of Eastern Europe). Its almost laughable to say that Democracy is being spread at the tip of the sword. It just isn't.

If it gets wider spread, will you accept that it is possible?

I have been reading how it is spreading like wildfire.

Yet, I like to think that "time" will tell......

peaceandlove,

janet