The flag before the Cross/or the Cross before the flag.

[theleast]

Yes, and it is a flimsy argument imho.

Rom 13 is admonishing us to refrain from rebellion against our leaders. It is not saying it is permissible to kill for them or follow them in their iniquity............. as is being suggested.


I suppose by this logic we can have abortions and be homosexual because our governments support that too??

Good point. I think the argument is not only flimsy but transparant.

Here is an example of what Romans 13 means to me.

Abortion is legal in America. Abortion goes against the will of God and is a form of murder used as birth control for adulterers.

Does that give us the right as Christians to go and blow up abortion clinics?

Of course not, under Romans 13 we are to follow the law. We do not have to RESPECT that law though. That is the difference.

[apothanein kerdos]

Good point. I think the argument is not only flimsy but transparant.

Here is an example of what Romans 13 means to me.

Abortion is legal in America. Abortion goes against the will of God and is a form of murder used as birth control for adulterers.

Does that give us the right as Christians to go and blow up abortion clinics?

Of course not, under Romans 13 we are to follow the law. We do not have to RESPECT that law though. That is the difference.

Well it doesn't matter what any passage means to you. What matters is what it means.

This means that if the government calls upon us to join the military in compulsory service, we are obligated to do so. Now how we act in that service is up to us (if we intentionally aim our weapons high as to avoid hitting people on the opposing side) - that is up to the individual conscience. However, if called upon, you must go.

That is part of what the passage means.

[Eaglenester]

Eagle, because of your lack of understanding in the Scriptures, you're not a Christian.

That sure is harsh of me, isn't it? In fact, if I left the comment there many of the moderators would probably delete the post (and would be justified in doing so).

Likewise, it is not up to you to declare who is and isn't a Christian. Personally, I cannot stand Bush. I think he has been a horrible leader and one of the worst presidents in the history of the United States. I also think his theology is suspect and his practices as president have only confirmed many of these suspicions.

That said, I am still in no position to say he isn't a Christian or that he is being guided by Satan. Just as if Obama is elected - though his theology is heretical and horrible, I cannot say with authority that he is not a Christian (unless he comes out and says as much) and, subsequently, cannot say he is being guided by Satan.

We need to be slow in our judgment - the irony is, in your cry for pacifism, you have become war-like in your pursuit. That is not true pacifism.

The reason I say President Bush is not a born-again christian is because of his much spoken theological stance.
He is a universalist, he says all religions follow the same god, that muslims and christians worship the same god, that the koran is equally a "holy book of god" as is the Scriptures.
He celebrates muslim holy days and has worshiped in a buddhist temple.
He has publicly read from the koran and said allah is god.

[apothanein kerdos]

The reason I say President Bush is not a born-again christian is because of his much spoken theological stance.
He is a universalist, he says all religions follow the same god, that muslims and christians worship the same god, that the koran is equally a "holy book of god" as is the Scriptures.
He celebrates muslim holy days and has worshiped in a buddhist temple.
He has publicly read from the koran and said allah is god.

It looks like my post went over your head (I don't mean that in the intellectual/elitist sense of the idiom, more in the "you're being too hard headed" sense of the idiom).

The point in all of what I was saying is that christians can do some pretty horrible things or live quite carnally - it doesn't necessitate that they haven't been justified, just that they might be slow in their sanctification. It would behoove you to drop your judgmental attitude of someone's salvation.

All of that, however, is off topic.

[Slug1]

I'm curious how many of the war supporters here are also 'Christian -Zionists'?

What is a Christian Zionist... keep in mind I'm a very simple man

[Slug1]

And our current leader is ALSO swayed by satan - he is not a true born again follower of Messiah, and claims to be led by a "higher spirital authority (a god)
Well if it;s not Yahweh, that leaves only the enemy.

You see America as God's - and He needs to have it protected.
I DON'T

That's cool, we'll still get used by God no matter what all our opinion's are.

[Eaglenester]

It looks like my post went over your head (I don't mean that in the intellectual/elitist sense of the idiom, more in the "you're being too hard headed" sense of the idiom).

The point in all of what I was saying is that christians can do some pretty horrible things or live quite carnally - it doesn't necessitate that they haven't been justified, just that they might be slow in their sanctification. It would behoove you to drop your judgmental attitude of someone's salvation.

All of that, however, is off topic.

You missed my point - it's not about carnality or doing terrible things - it's about what he professes to believe


It's his professed beliefs, which are unScriptural, that states he's not of saving faith - and he's not a "new christian" that hasn't learned yet.
He has been informed of and rejected the true Gospel of Messiah - that's why he and Franklyn Graham had a falling out, President Bush rejects the Gospel he presents.

[Eaglenester]

That's cool, we'll still get used by God no matter what all our opinion's are.

Would you have that opinion if you lived in Iran?

Yahweh uses murder to accomplish His will, that doesn't mean we are to support and applaud it.

[theleast]

What is a Christian Zionist... keep in mind I'm a very simple man

Christian-Zionists are those who seek the restoration of Israel at all costs as a fulfilling of prophecy.

Unfortunatly for them they don't realize that that prophecy has been fulfilled already and they missed it.

[Slug1]

Christian-Zionists are those who seek the restoration of Israel at all costs as a fulfilling of prophecy.

Unfortunatly for them they don't realize that that prophecy has been fulfilled already and they missed it.

Ah, OK.

[Slug1]

Would you have that opinion if you lived in Iran?

Yahweh uses murder to accomplish His will, that doesn't mean we are to support and applaud it.

I don't so I don't know. Besides if I did, then I'd most likely be muslim and serve a false god anyway. So I'd be on the receiving end of God's wrath through His avengers here on earth when I flexed my muscles with the rest of my nation who follows a false god.

[theleast]

Scripture for you...

17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

Genesis 16:12 (Whole Chapter)
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Genesis 17:20 (Whole Chapter)
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So if Ishmael is blessed by God and he is father of a great nation are we sure that his sons don't serve God?

Revelation 17

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Who in the world today hates the Lamb and the whore? Notice that the ones who do fulfill God's will.

And lastly...

13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. 19And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Medes are present day Iran.

[Alaska]

There is a difference between law and truth.
This can be demonstrated by what the NT says:

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

As in any society that has to have laws to establish order, accountability and combat crime in the fallen state of mankind after the fall, some of the laws will be there simply to deal with particular situations. They are not necessarily the truth, they just work to accomplish their goal.

In the garden before the fall there was no killing. There was also not the knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil. The choice given to Adam to choose life or death was not on the basis of choosing right and wrong; it was a simpler consequential thing: their choice to either eat or not to eat was what would determine life or death.

After the fall, laws came into being to deal with situations. Many of these laws were not "truth" after the NT definition of truth as seen in the quote above.

Genesis 9:
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

By man, came sin and death. One of the results of sin entering the world through Adam is that one of the sins that would be committed was the crime of murder. God initiates a law to execute vengeance on the murderer. This was completely unnecessary in the pre-fall world.

Jesus addresses vengeance in Matt. 5:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jesus is basically saying, but I say unto you, No. An eye for an eye in Moses was a reasonable elaboration or continuation of Gen. 9. Jesus is not denying that Gen. 9 was initiated by God. He is bringing in the NT that no longer permits that formerly allowed law, which served as part of the overall schoolmaster role of the OT.

In this chaper 5 of Matt. there are 6 places where Jesus uses a phrase similar to the one above, "but I say unto you" with regard to something from the law that was seen as indisputable by many.
He contradicts former practices that the law justified and reveals the absolute moral "truth" of those topics.

Divorce is one of those topics. It wasn't before the fall and it is not now to be done in Christ.
Revenge is another topic addressed in Matt. 5.
It was not before the fall and it is not to be done now by the children of God.
In fact, all of the things Jesus opposes in Matt. 5 are things we can reasonably conclude would not have been done in the pre-fall world.

The OT law was necessary to deal with mankind in his fallen state. It was not all "truth" though it is true that God allowed those temporarily imposed laws to exist for order etc until Jesus came to bring the NT of revealed truth.

Gal. 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul refers to this temporary service of the OT law again in Heb. 9:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[The reforming that the NT was to bring was to work for the accomplishment of a good conscience before God.
Hence the conscience-touching truth of Jesus in Matt. 5 and the return to truth as before the fall with regard to things such as divorce and vengeance.]

The law served until Jesus came to bring the truth. God chose to put new wine into new bottles.
Unregenerated man was "shut up from the faith" that was afterward to be reavealed in Christ.
By the NT, Truth was coupled with the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost [which regeneration could only be made available by the death and resurrection of Christ] as new wine must be coupled with new wine skins in order to ensure success.

I suggest that the old wine is cherished because there is not the new wine skin available that can appreciate the new wine.

[apothanein kerdos]

There is a difference between law and truth.
This can be demonstrated by what the NT says:

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

As in any society that has to have laws to establish order, accountability and combat crime in the fallen state of mankind after the fall, some of the laws will be there simply to deal with particular situations. They are not necessarily the truth, they just work to accomplish their goal.

In the garden before the fall there was no killing. There was also not the knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil. The choice given to Adam to choose life or death was not on the basis of choosing right and wrong; it was a simpler consequential thing: their choice to either eat or not to eat was what would determine life or death.

After the fall, laws came into being to deal with situations. Many of these laws were not "truth" after the NT definition of truth as seen in the quote above.

Genesis 9:
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

By man, came sin and death. One of the results of sin entering the world through Adam is that one of the sins that would be committed was the crime of murder. God initiates a law to execute vengeance on the murderer. This was completely unnecessary in the pre-fall world.

Jesus addresses vengeance in Matt. 5:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jesus is basically saying, but I say unto you, No. An eye for an eye in Moses was a reasonable elaboration or continuation of Gen. 9. Jesus is not denying that Gen. 9 was initiated by God. He is bringing in the NT that no longer permits that formerly allowed law, which served as part of the overall schoolmaster role of the OT.

In this chaper 5 of Matt. there are 6 places where Jesus uses a phrase similar to the one above, "but I say unto you" with regard to something from the law that was seen as indisputable by many.
He contradicts former practices that the law justified and reveals the absolute moral "truth" of those topics.

Divorce is one of those topics. It wasn't before the fall and it is not now to be done in Christ.
Revenge is another topic addressed in Matt. 5.
It was not before the fall and it is not to be done now by the children of God.
In fact, all of the things Jesus opposes in Matt. 5 are things we can reasonably conclude would not have been done in the pre-fall world.

The OT law was necessary to deal with mankind in his fallen state. It was not all "truth" though it is true that God allowed those temporarily imposed laws to exist for order etc until Jesus came to bring the NT of revealed truth.

Gal. 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul refers to this temporary service of the OT law again in Heb. 9:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[The reforming that the NT was to bring was to work for the accomplishment of a good conscience before God.
Hence the conscience-touching truth of Jesus in Matt. 5 and the return to truth as before the fall with regard to things such as divorce and vengeance.]

The law served until Jesus came to bring the truth. God chose to put new wine into new bottles.
Unregenerated man was "shut up from the faith" that was afterward to be reavealed in Christ.
By the NT, Truth was coupled with the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost [which regeneration could only be made available by the death and resurrection of Christ] as new wine must be coupled with new wine skins in order to ensure success.

I suggest that the old wine is cherished because there is not the new wine skin available that can appreciate the new wine.

Once again - I have posted a separate topic for this issue.

[Alaska]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska
There is a difference between law and truth.
This can be demonstrated by what the NT says:

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

As in any society that has to have laws to establish order, accountability and combat crime in the fallen state of mankind after the fall, some of the laws will be there simply to deal with particular situations. They are not necessarily the truth, they just work to accomplish their goal.

In the garden before the fall there was no killing. There was also not the knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil. The choice given to Adam to choose life or death was not on the basis of choosing right and wrong; it was a simpler consequential thing: their choice to either eat or not to eat was what would determine life or death.

After the fall, laws came into being to deal with situations. Many of these laws were not "truth" after the NT definition of truth as seen in the quote above.

Genesis 9:
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

By man, came sin and death. One of the results of sin entering the world through Adam is that one of the sins that would be committed was the crime of murder. God initiates a law to execute vengeance on the murderer. This was completely unnecessary in the pre-fall world.

Jesus addresses vengeance in Matt. 5:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Jesus is basically saying, but I say unto you, No. An eye for an eye in Moses was a reasonable elaboration or continuation of Gen. 9. Jesus is not denying that Gen. 9 was initiated by God. He is bringing in the NT that no longer permits that formerly allowed law, which served as part of the overall schoolmaster role of the OT.

In this chaper 5 of Matt. there are 6 places where Jesus uses a phrase similar to the one above, "but I say unto you" with regard to something from the law that was seen as indisputable by many.
He contradicts former practices that the law justified and reveals the absolute moral "truth" of those topics.

Divorce is one of those topics. It wasn't before the fall and it is not now to be done in Christ.
Revenge is another topic addressed in Matt. 5.
It was not before the fall and it is not to be done now by the children of God.
In fact, all of the things Jesus opposes in Matt. 5 are things we can reasonably conclude would not have been done in the pre-fall world.

The OT law was necessary to deal with mankind in his fallen state. It was not all "truth" though it is true that God allowed those temporarily imposed laws to exist for order etc until Jesus came to bring the NT of revealed truth.

Gal. 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Paul refers to this temporary service of the OT law again in Heb. 9:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[The reforming that the NT was to bring was to work for the accomplishment of a good conscience before God.
Hence the conscience-touching truth of Jesus in Matt. 5 and the return to truth as before the fall with regard to things such as divorce and vengeance.]

The law served until Jesus came to bring the truth. God chose to put new wine into new bottles.
Unregenerated man was "shut up from the faith" that was afterward to be reavealed in Christ.
By the NT, Truth was coupled with the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost [which regeneration could only be made available by the death and resurrection of Christ] as new wine must be coupled with new wine skins in order to ensure success.

I suggest that the old wine is cherished because there is not the new wine skin available that can appreciate the new wine.

Once again - I have posted a separate topic for this issue.

It is appropriate that I place this post here since it relates to the fallen state of man and hence earthly carnal nations and their flags that they pledge allegiance to, which is associated with war, contrary to the greater nation that Jesus established wherein is a calling to be back in fellowship again with God in some ways as before the fall. In this nation the citizens unashamedly hold up its banner and standard of truth, which banner and standard they are told by Jesus will be despised by the world.