cure-real
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Grace and Mercy or Strive toward Perfection?

  1. #1

    Grace and Mercy or Strive toward Perfection?

    I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

    The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

    What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?
    "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car."-Author Unknown

    "DUSTY BIBLES LEAD TO DIRTY LIVES"-Church Sign

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs Bunny View Post
    I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

    The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

    What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?
    I am not sure that I can help. I feel sorry for your friend. He is taking alot upon himself to become a perfect being....knowing that Christ is perfect and not us. I understand that we are pre-ordained to become like Christ....as much as we possibly can. But we have to keep a form of 'reality' about our walk and not cause others to faulter because we are driven in some spiritual way that hinders or harms our Christian friends.
    But I think I understand that he wants to try to not sin...we all want that but fail misserbly (at least I do).
    Is he unforgiveing to you if you miss a step and sin? If not, then he is sinning by not giving you his forgiveness and allowing you his mercy and grace.
    Isaiah 43:24 I, even I, am He Who blots out and cancels your transgressions, for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
    If more Christians were half as diligent as your friend then perhaps this would be a better world.
    Try to see the positive things in your friend and encourage him in these areas.
    Pray for God's wisdom to be indside of him. And pray for patience for yourself in dealing with your friend.
    "MAY THE GOD OF YOUR HOPE SO FILL YOU WITH ALL JOY AND PEACE IN BELIEVING THROUGH THE EXPIERENCE OF YOUR FAITH THAT BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU MAY ABOUND AND BE OVER FLOWING (bulling over) WITH HOPE."
    ROMANS 15:13 Amplified Bible

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    587
    "8Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:"

    These talks over the internet can get heated. We say things that are not convenient to each other because we are different. That is when I should lay my hand on my mouth. But for the sake of debate and for the council of many we say things to cause others to think. We write things and if they are folly or if they seam bad they are forgiven if we ask. That is the mercy. We do well when we have mercy and look to answers of grace. Thats something I have a problem with myself at times.

    I think the very words your saying can help namely grace. If we keep that word in our mind and constantly define it then it might help. I'll try to keep it in mine .

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    270
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs Bunny View Post
    I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

    The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

    What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?
    That person actually has a pretty admirable goal. Let me show you one interesting passage about "grace" that most folks gloss right over.

    Titus 2
    11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

    In observing the Greek, the word used as "teaches" here actually would be more accurately translated as "chastens" or "disciplines."

    See, God's grace doesn't simply turn a blind eye to sin. In His grace, He will discipline us for our sins to keep perfecting us.

    And if we're not being disciplined, we are not experiencing His grace:

    Hebrews 12
    8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

    So, I would say that if someone calls themselves a believer, and yet is sinning amuck, and they are not experiencing any discipline, they may want to re-evalute their kingdom status!

  5. #5
    With this person I was trying to explain how perfectionism and constantly telling someone they have to reach for it would actually cause someone harm if they couldn't understand something. Say someone was learning disabled in some way but trying their best. He says that is just an excuse to sin. I say its a person trying and God understands what is in our hearts in some cases. Maybe I'm just not making it clear?
    "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car."-Author Unknown

    "DUSTY BIBLES LEAD TO DIRTY LIVES"-Church Sign

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Texas, United States
    Posts
    2,585
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs Bunny View Post
    With this person I was trying to explain how perfectionism and constantly telling someone they have to reach for it would actually cause someone harm if they couldn't understand something. Say someone was learning disabled in some way but trying their best. He says that is just an excuse to sin. I say its a person trying and God understands what is in our hearts in some cases. Maybe I'm just not making it clear?
    Trying to be perfect has two problems:

    1) it is impossible. We are all flawed human beings. All he is doing is setting himself up for failure - and for many, the frustration of failing to reach high expectations has the result of forcing the person to the opposite extreme. In other words, if they can't be perfect, then they'll give up entirely.

    2) It also makes one feel as if they're "better" than everyone else, and turns them judgmental. They shoot for a personal purity that causes them to lose their desire to influence the outside world.

    I don't think you're failing to make yourself clear. I think people like that are typically closed to outside help. Sadly, you probably won't be able to reach him until after he's fallen, and perhaps through failure he will learn to accept the grace of God and his own sinfulness.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Everywhere I go, there I am.
    Posts
    21,196
    I agree with what Crawfish has written. One thing I have discovered over the years is that when I make Jesus the focus of each aspect of my life, I sin less and less; when I get caught up in the "do's and don't's" I sin more and more.

    It really is all about focus and allowing the Holy Spirit to use me as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

    Hope this helps a bit -
    V

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hattiesburg
    Posts
    1,141
    Blog Entries
    3
    he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..

    we can decieve ourselves and say we're ok... but the Sermon on the Mount says something altogether different...

    blessed are the POOR in Spirit... meaning humbled, not prideful, aware of your depravity... to say otherwise is to give into a prideful spirit...
    The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Norfolk Broads
    Posts
    3,173
    Blog Entries
    3
    I would tell your friend that, scripturally, it is a sin to suggest that we do anything for our salvation... it's a lack of gratitude, and a refusal to acknowledge that it is God who saves us "not of our own works, lest anyone should boast."

    BECAUSE of God's Grace we strive to perfection... that is, like Vhayes says, we reach out to get nearer and nearer to Jesus.

    In the same way as a Daddy smiles and helps his toddler walk, and picks them up when they stumble, so does God smile, and help us walk. We're not like Daddy, we're going to do do foolish and toddler things as we try "to walk even as He walked." But nothing is going to ever make me believe that He doesn't love me when I fall. I will try to walk, and when I fail, I might cry (as a baby does when they mess up) but I will still reach out to Daddy, and trust Him to take me home.
    Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

    My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Born on the knees of my Father
    Posts
    1,160
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Porter
    That person actually has a pretty admirable goal. Let me show you one interesting passage about "grace" that most folks gloss right over.

    Titus 2
    11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

    In observing the Greek, the word used as "teaches" here actually would be more accurately translated as "chastens" or "disciplines."

    See, God's grace doesn't simply turn a blind eye to sin. In His grace, He will discipline us for our sins to keep perfecting us.

    And if we're not being disciplined, we are not experiencing His grace:

    Hebrews 12
    8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

    So, I would say that if someone calls themselves a believer, and yet is sinning amuck, and they are not experiencing any discipline, they may want to re-evalute their kingdom status!
    I actually agree with what Joey wrote very much but i would add

    Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
    Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?


    There has to be a balance each one should be convinced ion their own minds that we are striving for the perfection in Him as best as we can.

    Tanja
    Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
    2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
    If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
    http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/




  11. #11
    BugsBunny,

    Many of God's doctrines are commonly accepted, but the one that is probably the most heatedly debated is "holiness." Living sin-free is commonly deemed as unattainable or impossible to achieve in this life; in some religions, it's taught that spiritual perfection won't be available until after this life. However, the Bible says otherwise.

    BTW Webster's 1828 defines holiness as "purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin."

    The Bible says:

    "...without (holiness) no man shall see the Lord" (Heb 12:14)

    "...present your bodies...holy, acceptable unto God..." (Rom 12:1)

    "For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (I Th 4:7)

    "...that we should be holy and without blame before him..." (Eph 1:4)

    "...as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy...because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (I Pe 1:15-16)

    The fact that there are so many opinions on this topic means there is a right and wrong side. I'd caution anyone who disagrees with the doctrine of holiness to stop and consider II Pe 1:20-21

    II Pe 1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy (Webster's 1828 - Preaching; public interpretation of Scripture; exhortation or instruction) of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    There aren't multiple ways to interpret the Bible because God said it all, He just inspired "holy" men to write down what He said. In addition, your friend that's using the Bible to backup the doctrine of holiness is on track.

    Keep in mind that this isn't my personal theory --- I'm using the Bible for this and know lots of people who live by this doctrine.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    upper midwest
    Posts
    1,859
    Quote Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
    he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..

    we can decieve ourselves and say we're ok... but the Sermon on the Mount says something altogether different...

    blessed are the POOR in Spirit... meaning humbled, not prideful, aware of your depravity... to say otherwise is to give into a prideful spirit...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree with this statement..

    If you look in the Psalms.. it declares and reveals to us that God teaches sinners in the way.. I dont advocate going out and living a sinful lifestye.... and then using that as an excuse.. no....

    He is also close to those that are of broken spirit and contrite spirit.. broken and contrite over their own failures or the situation they are in or the oppression or affliction they are going thru.. It says He is 'nigh'... and those who are in that position He will not despise....

    Psa 25:8Good and upright [is] the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


    Psa 34:18The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

    Anytime out of our flesh we try to please God with do's and don't this often leads to a 'legalistic' type of relationship which kills the Spirit.. and it makes and creates a person that will become 'self righteous' in his/her own eyes... which is not 'truth'..

    Psa 145:18The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.


    Paul talked about 'knowing' his own wretchedness.. that is the situations he was in and that He needed Jesus to help him and strengthen him and forgive him.... and to carry him thru and out of them...... even when he stumbled.. and fell short...

    There is something about 'knowing' your own wretchedness and how we cannot walk in this life without Him and His Strength, Wisdom, and Spirit..... when we can reach that point then we 'know' that it is all of Him that carries us thru and empowers us.

    God meets us where we are humble, broken, contrite... totally reliant on Him when we pressing forward and when we have stumbled and fallen....

    not arrogant chest thumping saying.. look how good I've become.. look how righteous I've become because of what I do and dont do...

    The power lies in 'knowing' that He has forgiven you and not falling into condemnation of the evil one... getting back up pressing forward... quoting the Scripture at him when he comes attacking and accusing...




    2Cr 9:8And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:
    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
    ------------------------------------------------
    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
    Jeremiah 31:3

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,675
    Blog Entries
    12
    Ephesians 5

    24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
    26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
    Christ will present the church to the Father as holy and blameless. It is through Christ that we are able to strive for that which is perfect. Without Him we are simply sinners, and far from blameless and holy.

    It is through Christ, in the process of sanctification, that we move toward that which is perfect. What many overlook is the cleansing, and that is something that many will embrace but not all will persevere through. To be purified by choice in following Christ, to be allowed to be purged of all of our blemishes and be found without a single spot. Christ will lead us there, if we are willing to follow.

    If holiness wasn't attainable, then what of this:

    2 Peter 1
    4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
    5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
    6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
    7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
    8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
    10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
    Can we truly love as Christ did without being like Him, being godly? Can we love our brother the way we are commanded if we aren't first like Christ? No. It says in verse 9 that those who is lacking has forgotten his purification from former sins - returning to the flesh of the old man instead of remaining in the new man through Christ.

    It is through Christ we are able to be made new, to be presented as holy, to be able to walk the faith and obtain godliness in order to have salvation in heaven granted.

    If we narrow our path we walk now shooting for that narrow gate, the entrace gate that Christ passed through will also be ours. Sanctification will over time make the narrow gate more and more apparent so that we do not miss it. But it starts with following and imitating Christ who is our example of Christian living.
    It starts with faith when we are made new, but doesn't stop there. We are not to rest but pursue sanctification.
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.


  14. #14
    [quote]Originally Posted by timmyb
    he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..[/quote]

    Let's "rightly divide the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15) here and take into account the verses both above and below the one you quoted:

    I Jn 1:6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    (vs 6) - If we walk in darkness (commit sin) and say we're still fellowshipping with Christ, we're liars and are not doing the truth (that's Bible talk, not my talk).

    (vs 8 and 10) - "For all have sinned..." (Rom 3:23) therefore "if we say we have no sin..." (vs 8) or "If we say that we have not sinned..." (vs 10) "...we deceive ourselves..."

    The scriptures aren't saying "it's ok to sin and if you say you aren't sinning you're deceived." They are saying (due to Adam's fall and subsequent bent towards evil) "all HAVE sinned" (not ARE sinning) and since all have sinned, all need the salvation of Jesus Christ; and, if you say you have no sin (no need of salvation), THEN you are deceived.

    Maybe an analogy would help here (based on Mt 1:21 "...for he shall save his people FROM their sins")

    One day there was a house on fire and an elderly lady was trapped in the second floor. A strapping young fireman bravely fought through the fire and found her upstairs. He picked her up and told her "I'm here to save you from the fire!" Then he plopped her down on the floor and ran back outside.

    When you are saved FROM sin, you no longer live IN sin. And, if we can't be saved FROM sin (Mt 1:21) in this PRESENT world (Tit 2:12), then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21).

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    In the slave pits of manmade Christianity, setting the captives free.
    Posts
    16,038
    We are to "press toward the mark" of the call of God on our lives, and to strive to live without sin, all the time knowing that we will sin, and that when we do, we have an advocate with the father who is faithful and just to forgive us and to restore us to full and unfettered fellowship.

    It is not an "either/or" scenario...it is "both/and."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •