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Thread: The pre-tribulation

  1. #1
    theleast Guest

    The pre-tribulation

    1 Corinthians 15:52 (Whole Chapter)
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

    I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

  2. #2
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    Wow am I ever glad that's settled.

  3. #3
    Whew! Me too! Now the church can finally come together! Thanks!

    Actually Bro or Sis - Who cares? God will do what He does - just make sure He has your heart when He comes

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by phaeton426 View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:52 (Whole Chapter)
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

    I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.
    Hello my friend. I am curious. Do you know where the term, 'the last trump' came from? Here's a hint: 1st Corinthians was written many years before the book of the Revelation.
    Shalom


    While scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeton426 View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:52 (Whole Chapter)
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

    I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    One question for you......

    During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?
    Many appear Righteous and Just because they say 'yes' to Jesus Christ , yet they don't do His Will.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Verily I say unto thee, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the Kingdom of Heaven before you do.
    ------------------------------------------------
    The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying. YEA, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with LOVINGKINDESS have I DRAWN THEE.
    Jeremiah 31:3

  6. #6
    Jesus did say His followers would undergo persecution, then "the end" would come, then the coming of the Son of Man, then the "gathering of the elect."

    Jesus Himself directly times the "rapture" as taking place after the tribulation.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    One question for you......

    During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?
    And what was Abraham's conversation with Him about, if not to separate the righteous from the wicked in the face of His wrath?
    Shalom


    While scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  8. #8
    The Parable of the Weeds
    The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

    The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

    'An enemy did this,' he replied.


    The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'


    'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'



    Jesus, again, directly states that the wicked and the righteous will be together until the very end. What the wicked go through, the righteous go through. What the righteous go through, the wicked go through.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Jesus did say His followers would undergo persecution, then "the end" would come, then the coming of the Son of Man, then the "gathering of the elect."

    Jesus Himself directly times the "rapture" as taking place after the tribulation.
    Hi markedward,

    I personally don't see it that way. I think He was answering the questions put to Him in the order that they were asked:


    Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,

    • when shall these things be? (The destruction of the Temple)
    • and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
    • and of the end of the world?

    Not defining the order that they would occur...
    Shalom


    While scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    The Parable of the Weeds
    The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

    The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

    'An enemy did this,' he replied.


    The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'


    'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'



    Jesus, again, directly states that the wicked and the righteous will be together until the very end. What the wicked go through, the righteous go through. What the righteous go through, the wicked go through.
    Once again I disagree. Here He was talking about the seed of man and the seed of the serpent, not necessarily the righteous and the unrighteous.
    Shalom


    While scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  11. #11

    Not so

    "During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?"

    The topic post is in error. The 'last trump' is not the last trumpet that will ever blow but the last trumpet during the age of grace. It is equal to the trump that John heard in Revelation 4:1-2. As soon as he heard that trumpet and a voice calling to him "Come up hither", he was raptured! The connection with I Corinthians 15:52 & I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is obvious.

    The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

    Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.

    Last edited by karenoka27; Dec 30th 2008 at 04:30 AM.

  12. #12
    I'll ask again, do you know the origin of the idiom, 'the Last Trump'?
    Shalom


    While scripture is inspired, the understanding of its true meanings are most often just the opposite. Contextual understanding of scripture has fallen victim to ignorance and apathy. It has been corrupted by a desperate adherence to the traditions of man and the agendas of the reprobate mind.


  13. #13
    • when shall these things be? (The destruction of the Temple)
    • and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
    • and of the end of the world?

    Not defining the order that they would occur...
    If He was answering them in the order they were asked... why is the final event (before the Coming) the destruction of Jerusalem (and logically, the only part of His response that would include the destruction of the temple)?

    Quote Originally Posted by talmidim View Post
    Once again I disagree. Here He was talking about the seed of man and the seed of the serpent, not necessarily the righteous and the unrighteous.
    The Parable of the Weeds Explained
    Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

    He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."



    The wheat = The "sons of the kingdom" = "the righteous"
    The weeds = The "sons of the evil one" = "all who do evil" (i.e., the wicked)

  14. #14
    cwb Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by phaeton426 View Post
    I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.
    Probably an impossible task since you'll shoot down any and every scripture a pre-tribber uses to back up their viewpoint. The same challenge could be made to you concerning your viewpoint (whatever viewpoint that is) and it would be an impossible task. The one making the challenge would shoot down every scripture you gave and say "it doesn't mean that".

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by theBelovedDisciple View Post
    During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?
    Your question is the result of a faulty understanding of the Post-Trib Rapture. The Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same thing. The 2nd Coming/Rapture occurs immediately after the Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord comes after the 2nd Coming/Rapture. So no, a post-trib Rapture does not have the saints enduring one second of God's wrath.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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