A new doctrine for discussion. Osas and no osas.

[ikester7579]

It's been a while since I have posted here. I left for personal reasons and to get my head clear. But I'm not here to post on a permanent bases. And I won't be debating on evolution issues here.

But while away I debated on several other places. Youtube, some other forums, etc... But the osas vs no-osas has always been an issue with me more than evolution because to me it's very important that we know what the truth is about this.

So one day while considering the judgment of the two thrones, several things just started coming together. And it's a doctrine I've come up with that I have never heard preached anywhere before. And it's all backable in God's word. And it denies 50% of the teaching of both doctrines of osas and no-osas. Already sounds weird LOL. I thought so to until I started testing it against the word of God. And every bit just fit like hand in glove. And it was also shocking to figure out what will happen.

I have presented this to other forums now. And people are shocked, they cannot find fault with it. So now I figure with all the knowledgeable people here, I would present it and give the glory to God if it passes the test here as well.

Side note: I used deductive reasoning to find this answer. Which makes me wonder if other answers can be found in the word using this same technique.

New doctrine:

So here it is in a nut shell. I'll try to keep it simple. But in no way accept this doctrine unless you are sure that it goes along with the word. I'm not here to convert no one. It's a long read but well worth it as you will also see several questions get answered that I see often asked.

After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfections will be corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings. Why? Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No? Now I'm not saying that denominations are bad, they lay our foundations for our faith. But to move closer to God, there comes a day that within our denomination that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where osas and no-osas has to be tested.

Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enough to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgiveness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hungry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition, he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner. And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell for the other judgement?

Note: There is no old or new testament hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire, they have one more chance.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far? This is why they are being punished (corrected by fire).

Now if the ones who "works" are being burned, are being saved by fire. Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it (knowledge of sin).

So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven. God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows "some" to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about Christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.

Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing Christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

Side note: The sheep will be corrected by the rod for a thousand years. The goats will be corrected by hell fire for a thousand years.

You see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because "whosoever" in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

God being no respecter of persons makes Him a just Judge.

So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respecter of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person (saved or unsaved) is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

For God to be just:

Every person has to be treated equally (no respecter of persons). Saved or unsaved. Anything less is unjust. Punishment for sin has to be the same (saved or unsaved). And having knowledge of sin making it a sin makes it just for all (saved or unsaved).

Knowledge of sin equals judgement:

1)For the sinner, it makes to where you have to have had a chance to know Christ before being punished for rejecting. Which means all that have not known, have no chance to know, etc... Still have one chance, after passing through the fire, to end up in heaven.

2) For the saved, The new in Christ would not know about all the conditions of the covenant. So not having the knowledge of the conditions yet, would make them innocent of the sin of not doing them.

Yet the ones who did but decided not to do them. Would receive punishment but would have one more chance.

All of this would make God just on every issue. No one goes to hell who did not deserve to be there. No one goes to heaven who did not deserve to be there.

Punishment vs eternal damnation:

When those who are pulled up from hell that do not have their name show up in the book of life. They are the ones who were given the chance, or had the knowledge but rejected. So their punishment turn into eternal damnation as they are cast into the lake of fire because they were full of evil and when given the choice choose evil instead of good. What proves this even more is this verse.

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Eternal Damnation is used when there is no chance of forgiveness. In danger means there is also a condition to this actually happening. What is that condition? The person first has to know what the sin is before it becomes a sin.

Punishment:

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever. You punish to correct. Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

[ikester7579]

Also, here is a video of what it looks like to an atheist when God is made out to be a respecter of persons in judgement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06HGc_jb6tk

You cannot have God being a just judge if the doctrine makes Him out to be a respecter of persons. Which makes the doctrine look new age, as video above points out.

[alethos]

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever. You punish to correct. Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Consider this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into eternal (aiōnios) life.

The state of the righteous is "life eternal;" the state of the wicked is "everlasting punishment." The duration of these two states is the same, exactly the same Greek word being used in each case (aionios). Then if the state of punishment has an end, so has the life.

[Joey Porter]

Ikester, I would say you are a lot closer to the truth than most of those who are on either side of the osas/nosas debate.

[John146]

It's been a while since I have posted here. I left for personal reasons and to get my head clear. But I'm not here to post on a permanent bases. And I won't be debating on evolution issues here.

But while away I debated on several other places. Youtube, some other forums, etc... But the osas vs no-osas has always been an issue with me more than evolution because to me it's very important that we know what the truth is about this.

So one day while considering the judgment of the two thrones, several things just started coming together.

I already disagree with you. There will not be two judgment thrones. Scripture knows of only one. Just because it's referred to as the "great white throne" only in Rev 20 doesn't mean that's a separate judgment.

And it's a doctrine I've come up with that I have never heard preached anywhere before.

That should raise red flags right there. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

And it's all backable in God's word. And it denies 50% of the teaching of both doctrines of osas and no-osas. Already sounds weird LOL. I thought so to until I started testing it against the word of God. And every bit just fit like hand in glove. And it was also shocking to figure out what will happen.

I have presented this to other forums now. And people are shocked, they cannot find fault with it.

Honestly, I don't think other forums have near the number of people who really study the word in depth as you can find here, so I'm not impressed with that statement.

So now I figure with all the knowledgeable people here, I would present it and give the glory to God if it passes the test here as well.

Side note: I used deductive reasoning to find this answer. Which makes me wonder if other answers can be found in the word using this same technique.

New doctrine:

So here it is in a nut shell. I'll try to keep it simple. But in no way accept this doctrine unless you are sure that it goes along with the word. I'm not here to convert no one. It's a long read but well worth it as you will also see several questions get answered that I see often asked.

After the tribulation, and we are on the 1000 year reign. Can anyone tell me why Christ is going to reign with a rod?

rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What this means is that our imperfections will be corrected. The rod is the representation of correction. Just like it says:

prov 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Whoa, time out. Did you somehow miss the part that says "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers"? How does being broken to shivers equate to merely being corrected? It doesn't. Read Rev 19:15, which also speaks of Christ ruling with a rod of iron. It indicates that Him ruling with a rod of iron is equivalent to Him treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.". What does that mean?

Rev 14
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


This has to do with utter destruction, not correction. Therefore, I believe you are completely misinterpreting Rev 2:27.

And when we are saved, we are all sons and daughters of Christ. So the thousands years is for our benefit to correct our imperfections of our denominational teachings. Why? Are we perfect? Is your denomination perfect? Is your preacher perfect? No? Now I'm not saying that denominations are bad, they lay our foundations for our faith. But to move closer to God, there comes a day that within our denomination that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And this is where osas and no-osas has to be tested.

If that is the purpose of the supposed future thousand year kingdom then why are a number of people, as the sand of the sea, deceived immediately afterwards? How could that be? That would make all that work of supposedly correcting our imperfections of our denominational teachings pointless.

Our salvation is not based on being 100% right. It is based on whether we accepted His gift. And loved Him enough to do His kingdom works (conditions of the covenant).

Now I know some of you are thinking: Is he promoting works to get to heaven? Nope. I did say you have to accept His free gift did I not? But let's take this a little further.

A covenant is a promise made between two people. Each side has a promise to keep. Even though Christ can never break his promise, we often break ours by committing sin. It's our imperfections that make us do this. But it is His forgiveness that allows us to stay in the covenant.

But there are some things required of us that if we do not do them. We will suffer. What are they?

These things we are supposed to do are:

1) Give someone meat who is hungry for it (meat of the word).
2) Give someone drink when they are thirsty for it (milk of the word).
3) Take someone in when they are a stranger (a unsaved sinner is a stranger to the word and salvation).

Now the above is the trinity of the works (our conditions) that we are supposed to do for the kingdom. Now for the rest.

1) Naked (we are supposed to provide cloths for the poor).
2) Sick (we are supposed to take care of the sick).
3) In prison (We are supposed to visit those who are in prison).

These are the works (conditions) while we are on earth. Why do them? When we do them we are showing the love of Christ. And through that love we plant seeds, and can help others to know Christ.

So the separation of the sheep from the goats is because some Christians will not do the works of the kingdom, nor the works we are supposed to do on earth. These are the only things these people are being judged for. What does that mean?

All that stand before Christ entered into the covenant. Why? How can Christ condemn or welcome anyone who did not if this is the only thing these people were judged on?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You see, knowledge of sin makes sin a sin. So how can the unsaved sinner be condemned for a sin of not doing a covenant condition, he knew not of? So everyone at the throne of Christ is saved. Not one unsaved sinner.

This is absolutely false. No saved person is going to be cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. The sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers. The goats get cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41). This is parallel to Rev 20:15, which speaks of the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire.

And if you think there is, name one verse that show specifically that anyone one person was: Pulled from Hell or any other unsaved place?

Besides, why would some people be pulled from hell for one judgement, then pulled from hell for the other judgement?

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?

Note: There is no old or new testament hell. When you are in there, you are in there for a reason.

So there is only one judgement for those in hell. And that is the Great White Throne judgement.

But who are the goats, and what happens to them?

Who?

1) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works for the kingdom.
2) They are the ones who did not do the trinity of conditions of works we are supposed to do here on earth that makes us shine like a light for Christ.

What happens to them?

Because there is what is called the works Judgement. Where the conditions (works) of the covenant are tested by fire, they have one more chance.

One more chance? They are cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. How do you get one more chance from that?

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That refers only to believers and it says nothing about EVERLASTING fire, as Matthew 25:41 does.

Now you might think that this goes against scripture by making another way to heaven. it does not, and here is why:

Christ came to earth to make the covenant for sin upon earth. So His covenant is valid while we are on earth until we are judged. After judgement, the ones who receive punishment are no longer held to the covenant because they broke it. Understand so far?

Not at all.

This is why they are being punished (corrected by fire).

Now if the ones who "works" are being burned, are being saved by fire.

1 Cor 3:15 is not saying that anyone is saved by fire. It says they are saved, "so as by fire". In other words, they are saved in such a way as if they were saved out of the fire. They are rather fortunate to still be saved despite their lack of good works. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works, afterall.

Where is the only place a person can burn? Is there a place in heaven with fire, or is that place in hell? So you see, for the goats hell becomes a place of correction. Why? Because they knew what they were supposed to do but refused to do it (knowledge of sin).

Again, the goats will cast into EVERLASTING fire for EVERLASTING punishment. In no way do those terms suggest a temporary time of correction.

So how are they saved by fire?

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The word "whosoever" in that verse leaves possibility. What this means is that some at the great white throne will go to heaven.

Yes, the sheep will (believers). The book of life is not present there for nothing.

God's word does not lie, right? So whosoever cannot be there unless there is a condition that allows "some" to enter heaven at this point.

So let's first understand that there are 3 types of people in hell (a trinity).

1) Those who knew about Christ, but rejected Him.
2) Those who never knew, and never heard.
3) The goats who were judged in the first judgement.

There is no first judgment. There is only one day of judgment. Why would there be two judgments in which people are cast into the fire?

Out of the three, only one group is assured for hell. And that is those who had knowledge of Christ but rejected Christ. What is it that helps out the number two people who never knew Christ? Or even heard Christ?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not knowing Christ, is not knowing the conditions of sin. So not having the knowledge of sin makes them innocent. So therefore they have a chance at heaven in this judgement.

Eternal destinies will already have been determined at that point. It is not the purpose of the day of judgment to determine eternal destinies. The purpose of it is to hand out eternal sentences. There will be only only two kinds of people there: sheep and goats. Wheat and tares. Saved and lost.

And what helps out the number three who are the goats? Being saved by fire.

There will be no being saved by EVERLASTING fire.

Side note: The sheep will be corrected by the rod for a thousand years. The goats will be corrected by hell fire for a thousand years.

EVERLASTING does not mean "a thousand years of correction.

You see this also answers a question that has not been answerable until now.

Why did Christ preach in Hell when He went there? What did He preach? He preached the gospel. Now can Christ deceive or lie to someone? No. So if He was preaching a sermon of hope to the hopeless, He was lying. But, if He was preaching a sermon of hope so they knew there was hope. He was not lying. So now we know why Christ preached in hell. Because "whosoever" in hell name appears in the book of life shall go to heaven.

God being no respecter of persons makes Him a just Judge.

So what would you think of a Judge (God) who did not punish for sin or crime? Would not He also be as guilty as the one who committed the crime because not punishing for the crime would make Him an accessory after the fact, right? So if someone thinks that God allows everyone to be judged the same. And you yourself think that some how you will skate by and all will be okay. Then you are saying that God is not a just judge because allowing some to skate by makes Him a respecter of persons. And any judge that becomes a respecter of "any" type person (saved or unsaved) is one that will also turn a blind eye to crime or sin regardless of what it is.

acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

So those of you who think salvation is a ticket to sin. Or that regardless of what you do you can never lose your salvation. You make God into a Judge that respects people which in turn makes Him unjust.

For God to be just:

Every person has to be treated equally (no respecter of persons). Saved or unsaved. Anything less is unjust. Punishment for sin has to be the same (saved or unsaved). And having knowledge of sin making it a sin makes it just for all (saved or unsaved).

God is certainly just and is not a respecter of persons. Finally, we have something in your post that we can agree on.

Knowledge of sin equals judgement:

1)For the sinner, it makes to where you have to have had a chance to know Christ before being punished for rejecting. Which means all that have not known, have no chance to know, etc... Still have one chance, after passing through the fire, to end up in heaven.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture. Instead, scripture teaches this:

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

2) For the saved, The new in Christ would not know about all the conditions of the covenant. So not having the knowledge of the conditions yet, would make them innocent of the sin of not doing them.

Yet the ones who did but decided not to do them. Would receive punishment but would have one more chance.

Again, the idea of having second chances after death is not taught in scripture. Don't worry about it, though. God is just and knows people's hearts. No one will end up in the lake of fire who doesn't belong there.

All of this would make God just on every issue. No one goes to hell who did not deserve to be there. No one goes to heaven who did not deserve to be there.

Of course. But a future time of punishment that occurs for the purpose of getting people to finally come around and repent and believe in Christ is not taught in scripture.

Punishment vs eternal damnation:

When those who are pulled up from hell that do not have their name show up in the book of life. They are the ones who were given the chance, or had the knowledge but rejected. So their punishment turn into eternal damnation as they are cast into the lake of fire because they were full of evil and when given the choice choose evil instead of good. What proves this even more is this verse.

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Eternal Damnation is used when there is no chance of forgiveness. In danger means there is also a condition to this actually happening. What is that condition? The person first has to know what the sin is before it becomes a sin.

Punishment:

mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment is not punishment if it last forever.

Everlasting means everlasting. You are trying to change scripture.

You punish to correct.

Not in the case of EVERLASTING punishment.

Everlasting here is used for a place (hell) where time has no meaning (everlasting). Hell itself is not eternal because people will be pulled out of it for judgement. And hell itself shall be destroyed as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The "everlasting fire" is the lake of fire. Both Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:15 say that is where unbelievers will be cast on the day of judgment.

[StevenC]

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I have similar a belief. I believe in both eternal torment for those who receive the mark and Satan, and destruction for the rest of the wicked and unbelieving. So where you see the lake of fire as being correction I see it as destruction and torment. (I posted an indepth explanation in another post.) So I equate salvation by fire as annihilation which is a much better fate than eternal torment.

Whatever the case, the Bible is clear that the righteous are saved, and the most wicked are tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. It is a little bit less certain what happens to the rest, but one thing we do know is that they are tossed into the lake of fire fire which is called the second death.

One thing to consider is that having rejected Christ there remains no way for the wicked to be reconciled and I don't think God is going to roast them till they accept Christ....

-Steven

[Joey Porter]

Now wait a minute. Things are not as cut and dry as you try to make them out to be.

The nations that are gathered at the sheep/goat judgment are the same nations that will be ruled with a rod of iron. But they are also the same nations being spoken of in Revelation 22:

2And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, if these nations are going to be "eternally destroyed," how can the scriptures speak of healing for them?

[Friend of I AM]

I think those things you list as conditions are more or less signs. These are things which bring about an example of God's love working in one's life, thus they aren't really conditions - just examples that God's love working through an individual. Even with doing all of these things it's still possible for one to do them out of pride as oppossed to Love. Ideally, we should follow Jesus's example when we give, and not let our right hand know what the left is doing - as well as quickly forget about the good we've done to others. If everyone has this attitude, specifically an attitude of doing good as being it's own reward - then we would quickly bring about the fullness of God's kingdom in the present age.

In Christ,

Stephen

[John146]

Now wait a minute. Things are not as cut and dry as you try to make them out to be.

The nations that are gathered at the sheep/goat judgment are the same nations that will be ruled with a rod of iron.

I assume your post was meant as a response to mine. Please refer back to what I said about what it really means to be ruled with a rod of iron.

But they are also the same nations being spoken of in Revelation 22:

2And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, if these nations are going to be "eternally destroyed," how can the scriptures speak of healing for them?

Where does scripture teach that entire nations would be judged? Look at any scripture that speaks about the day of judgment. Is it not always in terms of individuals being judged? Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire"? Do entire nations feed the hungry or visit the sick? The sheep and goats are individuals that are separated from within all the nations.

Regarding Revelation 22:2, I don't think that is the best translation of the verse. Here it is from Young's Literal Translation:

2in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

The Greek word for "healing" in that verse is "therapeia" (Strong's 2322). This is what the word means:

1) service rendered by one to another
2) spec. medical service: curing, healing
3) household service
a) body of attendants, servants, domestics

The KJV translators picked #2, for whatever reason. But, as we can see, that is not the only definition of the word. So, we can think of the leaves of the tree of life as giving a service to the nations. A service of pleasure. They will be something that is pleasing to people.

Look at the next verse:

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

If there's no more curse, why would there be the need for healing? Also, we know that at that time "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.". So, again, why any need for healing?

[Joey Porter]

I assume your post was meant as a response to mine. Please refer back to what I said about what it really means to be ruled with a rod of iron.

Where does scripture teach that entire nations would be judged? Look at any scripture that speaks about the day of judgment. Is it not always in terms of individuals being judged? Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire"? Do entire nations feed the hungry or visit the sick? The sheep and goats are individuals that are separated from within all the nations.

Regarding Revelation 22:2, I don't think that is the best translation of the verse. Here it is from Young's Literal Translation:

2in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;

The Greek word for "healing" in that verse is "therapeia" (Strong's 2322). This is what the word means:

1) service rendered by one to another
2) spec. medical service: curing, healing
3) household service
a) body of attendants, servants, domestics

The KJV translators picked #2, for whatever reason. But, as we can see, that is not the only definition of the word. So, we can think of the leaves of the tree of life as giving a service to the nations. A service of pleasure. They will be something that is pleasing to people.

Look at the next verse:

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

If there's no more curse, why would there be the need for healing? Also, we know that at that time "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.". So, again, why any need for healing?

Well, certainly at some point every man will be judged according to what he has done as an individual. But the OT is full of stories that show that entire cities or nations are judged as a whole.

But I'll stick with what is discussed in Revelation.

What would the major difference be between servicing/healing? In the case of a doctor tending to a patient, would not both terms be somewhate synonymous?

I personally don't have any problem harmonzing those in the nations (as individuals) being dashed to pieces like pottery with them being "healed." Is this not the way God deals with man to humble them? That is absolutely the case. Whatever we have inside of us that needs to come out has to come out through a process of humbling and tribulation, but in the end, is for our good.

Those who will reign with Christ upon His return (Luke 19) will be used to rule over the nations who are separated from Him at the time of His coming. Those nations will be outside of the Holy City and only those who have been made perfect (the bride who has the wedding garments, those who will reign) will be allowed to enter. They will be used to reign over, with the ultimate purpose of restoring, the nations.

[TrustingFollower]

This looks like modified greasy UR doctrine with a splash of RCC doctrine mixed in. Like ProjectPeter is famous for saying, with a good internet connection and five minutes I could find support for any theory out there. This one is no different. There is no need to invent all new doctrines at all, the Holy Spirit will guide.

[John146]

Well, certainly at some point every man will be judged according to what he has done as an individual. But the OT is full of stories that show that entire cities or nations are judged as a whole.

But Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of eternal sentences being handed out. Certainly, entire nations won't be cast into "everlasting fire". Neither will entire nations be allowed entrance into the kingdom "prepared for them from the foundation of the world" while receiving "life eternal".

But I'll stick with what is discussed in Revelation.

What would the major difference be between servicing/healing? In the case of a doctor tending to a patient, would not both terms be somewhate synonymous?

We're not talking about a doctor here, we're talking about the tree of life. Also, the word "healing" implies that something is wrong and needs to be healed. If there is no more curse, death, pain, sorrow or crying, why would there be any need for healing?

I personally don't have any problem harmonzing those in the nations (as individuals) being dashed to pieces like pottery with them being "healed." Is this not the way God deals with man to humble them?

No, not really. To be dashed to pieces is to be destroyed, not healed or corrected. Think about it. If you wanted to correct a flaw in a piece of pottery, would you dash it to pieces? Of course not.

That is absolutely the case. Whatever we have inside of us that needs to come out has to come out through a process of humbling and tribulation, but in the end, is for our good.

Those who will reign with Christ upon His return (Luke 19) will be used to rule over the nations who are separated from Him at the time of His coming. Those nations will be outside of the Holy City and only those who have been made perfect (the bride who has the wedding garments, those who will reign) will be allowed to enter. They will be used to reign over, with the ultimate purpose of restoring, the nations.

I disagree. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that for now as it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue any time soon.

[Joey Porter]

But Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of eternal sentences being handed out. Certainly, entire nations won't be cast into "everlasting fire". Neither will entire nations be allowed entrance into the kingdom "prepared for them from the foundation of the world" while receiving "life eternal".

We're not talking about a doctor here, we're talking about the tree of life. Also, the word "healing" implies that something is wrong and needs to be healed. If there is no more curse, death, pain, sorrow or crying, why would there be any need for healing?

No, not really. To be dashed to pieces is to be destroyed, not healed or corrected. Think about it. If you wanted to correct a flaw in a piece of pottery, would you dash it to pieces? Of course not.

I disagree. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that for now as it's clear we're not going to agree on this issue any time soon.

It's true that we may not come to common ground, but for the sake of others reading this topic, I will respond to some of what you discussed in your post.

First of all, in terms of dashing pottery to pieces to correct its flaws, I most certainly would say that, scripturally, a case could be made for this.

Jeremiah 18
4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

We're talking about a whole 'nother pot being formed, which is really the same pot with a whole new identity. It could also be considered as a house built on the sand that came crashing down, being rebuilt upon the rock.

And below, I will just reiterate what I posted in the "baptism by fire" thread, as it relates directly to what you talk about in terms of the the "everlasting" or "eternal" fire.

Well, I don't agree with the idea of purgatory in the way that the catholic church teaches it, but there are certain instances in the scriptures where fire is shown to be used for the process of purification. Here is one of the best instances of this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

One more very interesting point -

Matthew 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, what is interesting about this portion of scripture from Matthew 25 is that there is uncertainty among many scholars as to the exact understanding or meaning of the word "eternal" in the original Greek language. Some scholars say that it does mean unending, while other scholars say that it refers to a period of time or even a quality as opposed to a quantity.

But one thing that is clear is this: The Greek word translated as "punishment" in verse 46 actually means "correction" or even "pruning," as one would do to improve a tree.

I will simply say this: The meaning of this Greek word "kolasis" does leave some question as to how "correction" could or would be "eternal."

It is definitely worthy of further study.

[John146]

It's true that we may not come to common ground, but for the sake of others reading this topic, I will respond to some of what you discussed in your post.

First of all, in terms of dashing pottery to pieces to correct its flaws, I most certainly would say that, scripturally, a case could be made for this.

Jeremiah 18
4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

We're talking about a whole 'nother pot being formed, which is really the same pot with a whole new identity. It could also be considered as a house built on the sand that came crashing down, being rebuilt upon the rock.

And below, I will just reiterate what I posted in the "baptism by fire" thread, as it relates directly to what you talk about in terms of the the "everlasting" or "eternal" fire.

Well, I don't agree with the idea of purgatory in the way that the catholic church teaches it, but there are certain instances in the scriptures where fire is shown to be used for the process of purification. Here is one of the best instances of this:

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

I still disagree. I don't see your points as being valid, but thanks for sharing them, anyway.

One more very interesting point -

Matthew 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Now, what is interesting about this portion of scripture from Matthew 25 is that there is uncertainty among many scholars as to the exact understanding or meaning of the word "eternal" in the original Greek language. Some scholars say that it does mean unending, while other scholars say that it refers to a period of time or even a quality as opposed to a quantity.

But one thing that is clear is this: The Greek word translated as "punishment" in verse 46 actually means "correction" or even "pruning," as one would do to improve a tree.

I will simply say this: The meaning of this Greek word "kolasis" does leave some question as to how "correction" could or would be "eternal."

It is definitely worthy of further study.

But the Greek word "kolasis" doesn't just mean "correction".

It means: correction, punishment, penalty

It can mean correction. But it can also mean punishment or penalty. Also, the Greek word for "everlasting" that precedes "kolasis" is "aiōnios" (Strong's 166).

Here are the definitions for that word:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


That same Greek word for "everlasting", aiōnios, as used in the phrase "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 is also used in that same verse where it mentions "life eternal". Do you believe that the "life eternal" is not life that lasts forever? I doubt that. So, why not be consistent and interpret "everlasting punishment" as punishment that lasts forever? It's clear that "everlasting" means forever (without end), so I believe this means we can rule out the idea that "punishment" means "correction". As you indicated, it wouldn't make sense for correction to last forever.

[Bryan43]

If I may add.

if one looks through history they see a pattern.

first God dealt with man without a law. he dealt on an induvidual basis.

second came the law. Dealing with the nation of isreal. but as a teaching tool showing why we needed salvation, and what the messiah was going to do.

third came Christ. thus the church. the holy spirit given to all.

next thew 7 years to complete Gods promise to isreal.

finally Christ reign on the throne of David for 1000 years. With satan bound in the bottomless pit.

what we see is God shutting every excuse man will attempt to make at the great white throne.

there will be no excuse. Without the law. People rejected Christ. With it. people rejected. After the messiah came, people still rejected. and with Christ rulling for 1000 years, and satan bound. people still reject. All the excuses are gone. there will be no excuse for rejecting Gods salvation.

The bible also says after the 1000 year reign. when satan is loosed, he will again gather armies to come after Christ and his people. this is when God destroyed the rest, including the heavens and earth. and sets up eternity. this is when Time ends. The great white throne happens. and eternity begins. whether in eternal darkness, or in eternal light. depends on the decisions we made on earth while alive.

make any sense??