Is today's Churches what the 1st century church had in mind?

[Ron Brown]

"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

I took him to mean that his pastor teaches scripture over man made doctrine?

But I may have misunderstood him?

[student of the Lamb]

You are correct Ron. I may have also misunderstood Emanate also. I took him to mean that the Old Testament was more relevant than the New Testament. If that is what Emanate has presented then I would disagree with that because that would mean that Jesus Christ was not the most relevant part of our faith.

[Emanate]

You are correct Ron. I may have also misunderstood Emanate also. I took him to mean that the Old Testament was more relevant than the New Testament. If that is what Emanate has presented then I would disagree with that because that would mean that Jesus Christ was not the most relevant part of our faith.

What part of my post suggested that the OT was more relevant than the NT?

[simple]

Because the church is people and Christ died for them.
21st century or not.

Christ died for ALL people even his enemys. That doesnt make them right OR saved! False teaching still can send them to hell. Thats why Christ warned about false teachers.

[student of the Lamb]

"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have said. You did not say that they are of equal importance. Is that what you were inferring or are you inferring that the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament? As I said in my earlier post, I do feel that if you believe the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament then the relevance of Jesus Christ is lost.

[simple]

In my meaningless opinion, the biggest problem with Christ church is a lack of knowlege of what is in the Bible. Second is that Churches try to please everyone (don't want to step on anyones toes, might hurt attendance & offering) instead of just presenting Gods truth as it is. Pastors can water it down and sugar coat it all they want but when they stand before their maker , it will be according to his word that that will determine where they spend eternity.

[simple]

"He tells us that our church is first and foremost a New Testament church and that the Bible, particularly the New Testament comes before any religious doctrine."

In the New testament times there was no New Testament.

I would disagree strongly that the NT is more important in relevance that the "OT." And that is why I believe the NT church errs today.

I agree the new testament is not more important than the old, you can't have the new without the old. Jesus taught from and qoated from the old so he thought it pretty important.

[SIG]

Random thoughts:

1. Picture for a moment that you are God looking at all the Christians in the world meeting on any given Sunday. Can you see the incredible diversity?

2. While the Spirit is always the Spirit, the outward forms of meeting are subject to change--and change they have. If the form is not sinful, what's the problem? (Is anyone here claiming that these congregations that fall short are in sin?)

3. As far as I can see, the Bible does not specifically say, "Do church this way." Why would anyone assume that the First-Century church was or is a model for all centuries? And if it was, has God allowed all the following centuries to go wrong?

4. What makes any of us think that we have an accurate picture of what was happening in the First-Century congregations? (Don't forget how much energy Paul spent on correcting serious errors.) Might we be romanticising our imaginary ideas of those congregations? (Recall also Christ's letters to the seven churches in Revelation. They were hardly ideal.)

5. Recall the saying: "If you find the perfect church, it will no longer be perfect once you join it."

6. Opinions are a reflection of the flesh. In our discontent, are we expressing
God's desire to advance His Kingdom (even through a fallible church), or our opinions?

7. God can and does work all things together for good, for those who love Him...

[Emanate]

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you have said. You did not say that they are of equal importance. Is that what you were inferring or are you inferring that the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament? As I said in my earlier post, I do feel that if you believe the Old Testament is more relevant than the New Testament then the relevance of Jesus Christ is lost.

I do not believe that OT is more relevant, nor do I believe that it is any less relevant than the NT.

But I do not agree to saying that the relevance of Messiah Jesus is lost without the NT. Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[Athanasius]

Christ died for ALL people even his enemys. That doesnt make them right OR saved! False teaching still can send them to hell. Thats why Christ warned about false teachers.

I'm sorry, my '21st century church' must be different from everyone elses '21st century church'. Maybe there's a problem with broadly generalizing the state of the [entire] 'church' - the entire body of believers - as '21st century', ergo, wrong.

Yes, there is a problem with the church! Guess what? It's always been there, it's nothing new.

[HisLeast]

I'm sorry, my '21st century church' must be different from everyone elses '21st century church'. Maybe there's a problem with broadly generalizing the state of the [entire] 'church' - the entire body of believers - as '21st century', ergo, wrong.

No matter what our churches do or say, we will always be corporately, completely, and irredeemably lost according to some. The churches harshest critics and most untrustworthy allies are within its own walls.

[Ron Brown]

No matter what our churches do or say, we will always be corporately, completely, and irredeemably lost according to some. The churches harshest critics and most untrustworthy allies are within its own walls.

True. I am way to critical of every church I have been a member of in my lifetime.

Also, the meanest people on the planet at times are church going folk.

[Bethany67]

I wish there were a local church I could attend. Unfortunately I have a choice of two types in our vicinity: spiritually dead and dry with the hymn/prayer/hymn sandwich, or crazy WOF mixed with African traditional religion and heavy shepherding. I choose neither, and I feed myself until such time as God does plant me somewhere. We have the largest megachurch in Europe a couple of miles away, but the theology is way way off and they're being investigated for financial fraud. My views over the years have gone from:

- I don't trust them, they'll just hurt me again

to

- They're not doing it exactly the way I like so I won't go

to

- Where can I go and serve as part of a body?

This has probably been the biggest struggle of my spiritual walk for the past 6 years. You Americans seem to have so many churches and opportunities compared to the spiritual desert which is the UK. I eagerly desire to be part of a body of fellow Christians, worshipping and learning together, and yet each door I push closes. I guess God has a plan in it somehow but for the life of me I don't know what it is. Very frustrating.

[Ron Brown]

I wish there were a local church I could attend. Unfortunately I have a choice of two types in our vicinity: spiritually dead and dry with the hymn/prayer/hymn sandwich, or crazy WOF mixed with African traditional religion and heavy shepherding. I choose neither, and I feed myself until such time as God does plant me somewhere. We have the largest megachurch in Europe a couple of miles away, but the theology is way way off and they're being investigated for financial fraud. My views over the years have gone from:

- I don't trust them, they'll just hurt me again

to

- They're not doing it exactly the way I like so I won't go

to

- Where can I go and serve as part of a body?

This has probably been the biggest struggle of my spiritual walk for the past 6 years. You Americans seem to have so many churches and opportunities compared to the spiritual desert which is the UK. I eagerly desire to be part of a body of fellow Christians, worshipping and learning together, and yet each door I push closes. I guess God has a plan in it somehow but for the life of me I don't know what it is. Very frustrating.

Most American churches are the same as what you described, and we have a church on every street corner, in every town here in the USA.

The lack of churches is not our problem, what's being done in them is.

[Bethany67]

Fair point - I tend to think with the law of averages, the greater the number of churches the more likelihood that some of them will be good places to be.

You know what we need? A dose of old-fashioned persecution - there's nothing like it for separating the sheep from the goats and causing people to really turn to God and take Him seriously.