Is today's Churches what the 1st century church had in mind?

[Ron Brown]

You know what we need? A dose of old-fashioned persecution - there's nothing like it for separating the sheep from the goats and causing people to really turn to God and take Him seriously.

If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.

[manichunter]

If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.

There is a method to some of madness or mania dear Ron. Some of actual know and see the storm coming. We know that business as usual will be over soon. It will be about having the spiritual character intack to withstand the evil and oppression coming.

[valleybldr]

And that's the problem.
Everyone's got an opinion

Ahh, so maybe we are like the first century church. todd

[9Marksfan]

Gone are the days of Spurgeon and Alexander McClaren over there...So sad.

There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

But praise God there are men in the US with these ministries - Piper, MacArthur, Begg, Ryken, Ligon Duncan, etc - we need guys like these in the UK!!!!

[HisLeast]

If this were to happen in the USA, the church would die out. You would only have left in the USA a few small underground house meetings instead.

The church in the USA is all about show, and is dead as a hammer spiritually. We won't even stand up for Christ without facing any daily persecution, so when the extreme persecution heat gets put on, we will run in terror. The church in the USA is spineless at best, and I am part of the problem, just like the rest of the church in the USA is. We blend right in with secular society, and we allow them to pass their evil liberal laws that attack Christian morals and values, and the Church is going to allow a liberal evil man to become president of the USA in the 2008 election as well. It's sad, but true.

See, my church is big, has meaningful worship time, serious bible study time, and dutiful community outreach. We have several missions to the most notorious housing projects in Chicago, we run a soup kitchen, we have special programs for single parents, we have an aggressive apologetics program. Being blessed with a few affluent members, we also fund dozens and dozens of missionaries at home and around the globe. Yet always there are those who will ignore us and declare that the Lord's church is dead. Of course, you might not mean ALL of them... but I'm left to wonder, if you don't mean it that way, then why say it that way.

Why do I need to wish for persecution when OUR OWN BRETHREN make us feel weak, useless, and reprobate?

Two more things
1) You have no IDEA how our church would do under persecution. For all you know that could be the spark that sets the fire (in those churches where the fire isn't roaring). For those that really do abandon the church... well... there's your chaff for you. The rest of us who have been busting our humps all along will still be here.

2) Are YOU ready for persecution? I hear plenty of tough talk, ever ready to stare down the nose at 'those others' who don't know/can't stand real persecution. But unless you've had the daylights kicked out of you, served jail time, gone hungry, or been extorted because of your faith save the lecture. I think most of us would be pretty shocked to find out just how bad torture and oppression really are. I don't think there's a single one of us ready to tell their child "sorry, we can't eat tonight because mommy and daddy are Christians and nobody will sell us food".

The 21st century Western church is NOT dead!!

[HisLeast]

There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

Can't speak for the UK myself, but friends over in Ireland tell me that Catholic outreach programs are highly successful these days and the old churches are starting to burst at the seams.

Just what I heard. Can't verify.

[seamus414]

There's still a remnant, although you're right - large congregations (ie 500+) happy to sit under powerful, Biblical exposition are pretty much gone entirely in the UK now - and that's just been within the last 20 years......unless anyone from the UK can tell me differently?

But praise God there are men in the US with these ministries - Piper, MacArthur, Begg, Ryken, Ligon Duncan, etc - we need guys like these in the UK!!!!

Well Fr. Niky Gumbel (founder of the Alpha Course) is in the U.K. at his parish Holy Trinity Brompton which is a near mega-church. That church is proudly prclaiming the Gospel!

Check it out: http://www.htb.org.uk/

[uric3]

Are our Churches in the 21st century and their services what Peter and Paul had in mind when they started their 1st century Churches in your opinion?

Everybody says you need to go to Church if you are a born from above Christian, but is today's style of Church services even something we should be attending? Most of it is watered down scriptural preaching at best, with a get what you can get from God attitude, instead of a what can I do for God attitude. what's your opinion on the 21st century Church services, and are they something we should be a part of?

I think they would be sorely disappointed in what has happened to the church over the years. Christ prayed for unity and according to 1 Cor 1:10 it states "...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However today its just the complete opposite... choose the church of your choice... you want to be homosexual we have a church that will be ok with this kind of live style.

Want to divorce and remarry for any reason sure we got a church that will accept that...

Want to be a drunkard and live it up sure we have a church for that to...

Want to go to church were we cancel services for the super bowl and instead of preach Christ will have a superbowl party instead? Have that to...

Want to attend church just to play sports and do recreational activities? Sure we have a church for that to... you don't even have to learn about Christ just go have fun!...

Its sick really when you think about it... how can people go to churches like that when the bible condemns a lot of the behavior they uphold!

I'm not saying the church I go to is perfect by any means... however we try our best to model ourselves after the 1st century church by following all the examples and doctrine we have in the NT concerning the church such as how its governed, worship, etc...

[HisLeast]

I think they would be sorely disappointed in what has happened to the church over the years. Christ prayed for unity and according to 1 Cor 1:10 it states "...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

However today its just the complete opposite... choose the church of your choice... you want to be homosexual we have a church that will be ok with this kind of live style.

<snip>

Its sick really when you think about it... how can people go to churches like that when the bible condemns a lot of the behavior they uphold!

I'm not saying the church I go to is perfect by any means... however we try our best to model ourselves after the 1st century church by following all the examples and doctrine we have in the NT concerning the church such as how its governed, worship, etc...

Its NOT the opposite. Its exactly how its always been. Some pillars of faith, some on shaky foundation, and some capable of bearing zero load. I believe an honest look @ 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians will show that the 1st century church had stumbling blocks and hang ups of its own. I mean for crying out loud the Corinthians were BOASTING about men in its church who had slept with their own mothers!

The letters of the New Testament have many cases where you can practically see Paul's face getting red in anger. So 1st century Christendom clearly wasn't a idyllic age that puts us to shame. And within those tirades is his letter to the Ephesians. Those churches that WERE holding the line got a nice big pat on the back. But you don't see much of that today, I'll tell you that.

[uric3]

Its NOT the opposite. Its exactly how its always been. Some pillars of faith, some on shaky foundation, and some capable of bearing zero load. I believe an honest look @ 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians will show that the 1st century church had stumbling blocks and hang ups of its own. I mean for crying out loud the Corinthians were BOASTING about men in its church who had slept with their own mothers!

The letters of the New Testament have many cases where you can practically see Paul's face getting red in anger. So 1st century Christendom clearly wasn't a idyllic age that puts us to shame. And within those tirades is his letter to the Ephesians. Those churches that WERE holding the line got a nice big pat on the back. But you don't see much of that today, I'll tell you that.

I agree with you there the 1st Century church had its issues don't get me wrong... however I don't think there was near the doctrinal division there is today... Granted you mentioned 1st Cor 5 about the young man sleeping with his fathers wife... they just swept it under the rug and didn't do any disciplinary action. Which they corrected according to 2nd Cor.

Once again I agree with you that the 1st century church had its issues... however I would state most of them where more doctrinally correct and on the right track than most churches today. However reguardless of where you go you will have members who fall short etc...

Only difference is today its accepted and the church accepts it... rather than being corrected from what we know and have from the Bible. Such as some of the examples I stated above... they know its wrong the Bible states it wrong yet the Church (not just one member) all say its ok or support such and such sinful act.

[Bethany67]

Well Fr. Niky Gumbel (founder of the Alpha Course) is in the U.K. at his parish Holy Trinity Brompton which is a near mega-church. That church is proudly prclaiming the Gospel!

Check it out: http://www.htb.org.uk/

I've been to HTB several times. Not exactly my scene - too 'church programmey' for me - but yes they don't fudge issues as far as I can tell. Sandy the vicar is a sweet guy. They're very accepting of the homeless people in the area, despite it being a very affluent part of London; one baptismal service this guy being baptised spoke of how he started sheltering in the entrance when it rained, people got talking to him as a smelly muttering alcoholic, found him a place to live and a job, he became a Christian, and has been a member of the church ever since. It was lovely - the Gospel in action.

[Ron Brown]

Do some church hopping for a few years, and you will see just how messed up the church in the USA is in the 21st century.

Most people are settled into a good church home, and have no clue what's going on in the other churches throughout their community.

[sunsetssplendor]

I searched a long time before I found the bible teaching church I attend and I thank God for my church and pastor that has taught me so very much. I think God is pleased with many churches - the key is finding the right church because there are GOOD bible teaching churches out there.

[uric3]

I agree with Ron and Sunset

*Former Church Hopper*

The example I gave earlier of canceling services for the Super Bowl and having a Super Bowl party at the building rather than worship on Sunday actually happened at a church in my community.

You'd be surprised of all the funky things that go on... most without scriptural authority at all... at least some churches have some kind of scripture to back up their practices...

[HisLeast]

Do some church hopping for a few years, and you will see just how messed up the church in the USA is in the 21st century.

I've had the pleasure of going to church in at least half the states of the union and every province of Canada. I traveled 3 weeks a month for 5 years, and went to church whenever I could. I'd advise looking for the good ones rather than being content with the idea that the western church is dead. It is far from it.