God And The Jewish Religion??

[SIG]

Matthew 15:1 makes it clear that Jesus is speaking to scribes and Pharisees.

He is not applying Isaiah's prophecy to a whole religious system, but to those who had turned it into a burden.

Pulling a verse out of context to try to prove or understand a precept is also an error.

[Firstfruits]

Firstfruits, I have no qualms with the Scriptures. Isaiah prophesies an exile for Judah and gives them every opportunity to repent. However, within Judah was a remnant.

Isaiah 1:9 9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 10:20-22 20 ¶ Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.

My problem is your indictment against all Israel and their "religion", which was given by God. There were still some who sought to love, trust and obey the Lord. As NT Christians like to say, it is a matter of the heart. As it is now, so was it then a matter of the heart. And as Israel corrupted the pure religion of God, so was it done in Jesus day. But Rabbinic Judaism was just getting started during the first century and "Judaism" was not formed into a Jewish religion until long after Jesus spoke these words. We need to be careful that we today do not corrupt what God has established as well.

Blessings.
BHS

God said that they teach precepts as though they were his, Israel fear God according to the commandments of men.

Is 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Prov 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

When Jesus came he confirmed the same;

Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So as you can see it is not my indictment but that of God and Jesus.

By following what Both God and Jesus said are precepts, commands, teachings of men, how does that change the outcome?

Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Matthew 15:1 makes it clear that Jesus is speaking to scribes and Pharisees.

He is not applying Isaiah's prophecy to a whole religious system, but to those who had turned it into a burden.

Pulling a verse out of context to try to prove or understand a precept is also an error.

May I ask of whom God was speaking in these scriptures?

Is 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Prov 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Firstfruits

[Eaglenester]

God said that they teach precepts as though they were his, Israel fear God according to the commandments of men.

Is 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Prov 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

When Jesus came he confirmed the same;

Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So as you can see it is not my indictment but that of God and Jesus.

By following what Both God and Jesus said are precepts, commands, teachings of men, how does that change the outcome?

Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Firstfruits

But that does not negate the Scriptural (not taking the man-made teachings) practice of those who followed Torah.

Messiah's statement is THESE people - not an indictment on Scriptural practice of the Hebrew faith.
Messiah followed the Scriptural Hebrew faith

[Firstfruits]

You can't broad-brush this to apply to the whole jewish system.

As long as Israel are following the teachings of that they were given by the priests and pharisees, according to Jesus they were worshiping God in vain;

Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who are "this people" if they are not Israel?

Firstfruits

[Eaglenester]

May I ask of whom God was speaking in these scriptures?

Is 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Prov 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Firstfruits

To some (including present time) religious leaders - but not ALL.

MANY today teach the precepts of man, does that negate ALL christianity?

[Eaglenester]

As long as Israel are following the teachings of that they were given by the priests and pharisees, according to Jesus they were worshiping God in vain;

Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who are "this people" if they are not Israel?

Firstfruits

Not ALL Israel.

If you say YES - then you have to say ALL christianity being taught by men also.

[valleybldr]

To some (including present time) religious leaders - but not ALL.

MANY today teach the precepts of man, does that negate ALL christianity?

Every denomination has it's version of "oral Torah." (extra-biblical laws, traditions, teachings etc.) If someone doubts that go ahead ands put forth a denomination and we can make a list to illustrate the point. todd

[Eaglenester]

Every denomination has it's version of "oral Torah." (extra-biblical laws, traditions, teachings etc.) If someone doubts that go ahead ands put forth a denomination and we can make a list to illustrate the point. todd

Totally agree - but that does not negate a Scriptural practice of the faith as the oper seems to imply.

[Firstfruits]

But that does not negate the Scriptural (not taking the man-made teachings) practice of those who followed Torah.

Messiah's statement is THESE people - not an indictment on Scriptural practice of the Hebrew faith.
Messiah followed the Scriptural Hebrew faith

The Torah has 613 commandments, the Torah cannot be added to or taken away from. Heres the problem, the Torah states that all the commandments can be broken inculding the rules for the Sabbath as long as you broke it to save a life. On top of that there is the Oral law which is to explain what you have been told what you can do or not do.

So look at it this way, as long as it can be claimed that whichever of the 613 commandments are broken in order to save a life you are justified in doing so. Now do you agree or disagree with what the Torah states?

Firstfruits

[valleybldr]

Totally agree - but that does not negate a Scriptural practice of the faith as the oper seems to imply.

You have to see if a given (humanly authored) standard reflects the original intent (of the divinely given law) or if it compromises or negates the same. todd

[Eaglenester]

The Torah has 613 commandments, the Torah cannot be added to or taken away from. Heres the problem, the Torah states that all the commandments can be broken inculding the rules for the Sabbath as long as you broke it to save a life. On top of that there is the Oral law which is to explain what you have been told what you can do or not do.

So look at it this way, as long as it can be claimed that whichever of the 613 commandments are broken in order to save a life you are justified in doing so. Now do you agree or disagree with what the Torah states?

Firstfruits

Well I reject oral law so it has no meaning.

[Firstfruits]

Well I reject oral law so it has no meaning.

In order to regard the Jewish religion you cannot reject Oral law as it is Oral law that explains how the commandments are to be kept.


(Mishnah Shabbat, 7:2)
All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited handling any implement that is intended to perform one of the above purposes (for example, a hammer, a pencil or a match) unless the tool is needed for a permitted purpose (using a hammer to crack nuts when nothing else is available) or needs to be moved to do something permitted (moving a pencil that is sitting on a prayer book), or in certain other limited circumstances. Objects that may not be handled on Shabbat are referred to as "muktzeh," which means, "that which is set aside," because you set it aside (and don't use it unnecessarily) on Shabbat.
The rabbis have also prohibited travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."
The issue of the use of an automobile on Shabbat, so often argued by non-observant Jews, is not really an issue at all for observant Jews. The automobile is powered by an internal combustion engine, which operates by burning gasoline and oil, a clear violation of the Torah prohibition against kindling a fire. In addition, the movement of the car would constitute transporting an object in the public domain, another violation of a Torah prohibition, and in all likelihood the car would be used to travel a distance greater than that permitted by rabbinical prohibitions. For all these reasons, and many more, the use of an automobile on Shabbat is clearly not permitted. As with almost all of the commandments, all of these Shabbat restrictions can be violated if necessary to save a life.

Firstfruits

[Eaglenester]

In order to regard the Jewish religion you cannot reject Oral law as it is Oral law that explains how the commandments are to be kept.


(Mishnah Shabbat, 7:2)
All of these tasks are prohibited, as well as any task that operates by the same principle or has the same purpose. In addition, the rabbis have prohibited handling any implement that is intended to perform one of the above purposes (for example, a hammer, a pencil or a match) unless the tool is needed for a permitted purpose (using a hammer to crack nuts when nothing else is available) or needs to be moved to do something permitted (moving a pencil that is sitting on a prayer book), or in certain other limited circumstances. Objects that may not be handled on Shabbat are referred to as "muktzeh," which means, "that which is set aside," because you set it aside (and don't use it unnecessarily) on Shabbat.
The rabbis have also prohibited travel, buying and selling, and other weekday tasks that would interfere with the spirit of Shabbat. The use of electricity is prohibited because it serves the same function as fire or some of the other prohibitions, or because it is technically considered to be "fire."
The issue of the use of an automobile on Shabbat, so often argued by non-observant Jews, is not really an issue at all for observant Jews. The automobile is powered by an internal combustion engine, which operates by burning gasoline and oil, a clear violation of the Torah prohibition against kindling a fire. In addition, the movement of the car would constitute transporting an object in the public domain, another violation of a Torah prohibition, and in all likelihood the car would be used to travel a distance greater than that permitted by rabbinical prohibitions. For all these reasons, and many more, the use of an automobile on Shabbat is clearly not permitted. As with almost all of the commandments, all of these Shabbat restrictions can be violated if necessary to save a life.

Firstfruits

YES one CAn reject oral law.

YOU don't make the rules

[IPet2_9]

If anyone's ever worked for a large company before, they know there are some unspoken laws that aren't even oral.

I, for one, am thankful that God gave us a Book to live by (early man did not have that), but I know that it is not whether a law is written/oral/unspoken that binds us by it, but whether it is God who passed it. If God speaks a law, then it is law. If man speaks a law, then it's just wasted oxygen.