Universalism Exposed

[poochie]

CARM is new Evangelical and I do not necessarily agree with Matt Slicks support of the Emerging Church and the Home Church movement, however I realize he is one of the best on the web for quick information in the field of Apologetics. Carm has an excellent article on Universalism that I used to aid me in a debate with a Universalist once. I mention this because there are some here that think that salvation comes on everyone and all will be saved. These type take scriptures out of context.


http://www.carm.org/universalism.htm

[Coptichristian]

poochie,

I read CARM's material on universalism. Would you like to discuss this topic with me?

[David Taylor]

poochie,

I read CARM's material on universalism. Would you like to discuss this topic with me?

Hello Coptichristian and poochie, I see yall are both new to the board (1 month), and may not realize that Universalism is a topic not open for discussion on the Open Board Forums.

You might want to know that Universalism falls outside of the board rules.
Bibleforums Rules... Please Read!

When you gain the minimum number of days and posts, you will be able to post and read from the World Religions subforum, where Universalism can be discussed.

However, even in the WR subforum, Universalism cannot be argued or proselythized; it is a teaching rejected by Mainstream Protestantism, and it's intent of discussion in WR is for Protestants to explain why from the scriptures, this teaching should be rejected. There is an ongoing thread there that covers probably most all angles of this doctrine; and you should be able to see it when your post-count reaches 40, and you have been a member for over 30 days with positive reputation pts.

[markedward]

Two verses alone, one from the OT, another from the NT, are enough to refute universalism.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

The belief as a whole shouldn't even exist within Christianity on the basis of just these two verses.

[apothanein kerdos]

The inherent problem with universalism is its misunderstanding of God's justice and what constitutes sin. Universalists think sin is things such as "murder," "theft," "rape," and crimes of that nature. While those are certainly sins, they ignore that sin is an internal action caused by our thoughts about God. If we have the wrong doctrine about God then we will have the wrong actions toward God as well.

With this in mind, someone that is part of another religion holds the wrong view toward God, which is an insult to God in and of itself. We can say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what name you use for God," but that doesn't make sense. We never say, "Oh, it doesn't matter if you call your wife by a different name" or "Oh, it doesn't matter if you say something about your wife that isn't true." Only with God do Universalists allow such ambiguity.

Thus, there has to be a standard to who God is. Now, we won't understand everything about Him, but we can get the basic nature down. Once we do this we realize God is a God of justice that requires His justice to be acted upon. His justice, however, is in synch with His love. For those that accept His remedy to our sin, He sees them as covered by the blood of Christ. For those that don't accept His offering of love, they are left on their own.

That's the Christian view anyway. Philosophically Universalism falls short, but I won't get into that right now.

[Firstfruits]

poochie,

I read CARM's material on universalism. Would you like to discuss this topic with me?

Unless there is salvation in the grave can the unrighteous expect to have access to the kingdom of God?

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Firstfruits

[David Taylor]

Unless there is salvation in the grave can the unrighteous expect to have access to the kingdom of God?

Salvation is not found in the grave,

it is found during the lifetime of all men.

[Athanasius]

Unless there is salvation in the grave can the unrighteous expect to have access to the kingdom of God?

Well... They don't have that expectation.

[Firstfruits]

Well... They don't have that expectation.

Why then do those that believe in universalism have that expectaion?

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Salvation is not found in the grave,

it is found during the lifetime of all men.

I agree with you, however are there any other scriptures that say that?

Firstfruits

[David Taylor]

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Luke 8:14 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

[mikebr]

The inherent problem with universalism is its misunderstanding of God's justice and what constitutes sin. Universalists think sin is things such as "murder," "theft," "rape," and crimes of that nature. While those are certainly sins, they ignore that sin is an internal action caused by our thoughts about God. If we have the wrong doctrine about God then we will have the wrong actions toward God as well.

With this in mind, someone that is part of another religion holds the wrong view toward God, which is an insult to God in and of itself. We can say, "Oh, it doesn't matter what name you use for God," but that doesn't make sense. We never say, "Oh, it doesn't matter if you call your wife by a different name" or "Oh, it doesn't matter if you say something about your wife that isn't true." Only with God do Universalists allow such ambiguity.

Thus, there has to be a standard to who God is. Now, we won't understand everything about Him, but we can get the basic nature down. Once we do this we realize God is a God of justice that requires His justice to be acted upon. His justice, however, is in synch with His love. For those that accept His remedy to our sin, He sees them as covered by the blood of Christ. For those that don't accept His offering of love, they are left on their own.

That's the Christian view anyway. Philosophically Universalism falls short, but I won't get into that right now.

Are you sure you understand Evangelical Universalism completely?

[Firstfruits]

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

2 Corinthians 6:2 "For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Luke 8:14 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

Thank you David,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

Two verses alone, one from the OT, another from the NT, are enough to refute universalism.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

The belief as a whole shouldn't even exist within Christianity on the basis of just these two verses.

I believe that What Jesus says in the following tells us plainly that not all shall enter Heaven, even if they want to.

Lk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

[mikebr]

I believe that What Jesus says in the following tells us plainly that not all shall enter Heaven, even if they want to.

Lk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Then how can you KNOW that you have or will enter the Strait Gate?