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Thread: Eternal Security...

  1. #1
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    Eternal Security...

    The Truth about "Once Saved, Always Saved"...[sorry, this was the original title]...


    I now see how harmful this doctrine is because it is a “stepping stone” to the “Doctrine of Inclusion”, which is damnable. This doctrine here makes it very easy to receive the “Inclusion” beliefs.


    Some people seem to want a salvation plan, which consists of all privileges, with no responsibility. Privileges without responsibilities produces spoiled children, and that is not what the Lord is doing. He said … “Make disciples…Matthew 28:19-20. Before Christ, we had no choice, we were slaves to sin…Romans 6: 1-6, but now IN Christ, we are responsible for our choices…James 4:17.

    First, I would like to say that I do not believe that you can do anything to earn your salvation, it is by grace that we are saved, it is a gift of God…Ephesians 2:8-9, but this is not about receiving salvation, this is about the maintenance of that salvation you have received.

    I believe that we have to do, or live a certain, disciplined lifestyle, once we are saved. Just because Jesus Christ died for our sins, and grace is free, we seem to think that we are not accountable to have to do anything once we are Christians.

    Others would say, “we don’t have to concern ourselves with sin because Jesus died for past sin, present sin, and future sin…true! He died once and for all, He is also the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and that did not change the scenarios in Genesis chapters 3-6. We must remember there are three to salvation, and repentance is one of them, [seeing our sin as God does, and turning from sin to God]. First repentance must be applied, then the blood…Luke 13:3.

    Yes, Jesus died to wash away all of our sins, but that forgiveness is predicated upon repentance, which does not mean just being sorry for your sins, (that is just the first step), but turning from your behavior, and turning to the Lord, and His ways, (this is our part). I also believe one can reach sinless perfection, but it will not be without some effort on our part.

    We need to look at the original definition for grace, which is not unmerited favor, (which we have been taught), but actually: “the Divine influence on the heart, and It’s reflection in the life”. Grace is not to cover our sin, (the blood of Jesus did that at the cross), but to give us the power not to sin. That same grace that saved us, gives us power over sin in our lives.

    How can we believe the Spirit of the Lord has power to work miracles, to provide, to heal, and then believe he does not have power over the sin in our lives? The problem is our belief system, because no matter what Jesus can and will do, if we don’t believe it, He cannot do it for US! (Matt 13: 58).

    How do we believe that the Lord is concerned when we don’t tithe, but not concern when we are not holy? “Grace” can cover our sin, but not our lack of tithing? (Don’t get me wrong, I do tithe, and give, it just seems sort of hypocritical that’s all). We believe the Lord will deliver us from poverty, lack, even sickness, but not from practicing the sin for which He died to achieve victory over, [and what separates us from God’s holiness, lack, poverty, and/or sickness will not keep you from inheriting the Kingdom of God]. We exercise our faith for material gain, but will not exercise it to believe we can live holy, [exercise hurts the most in the weakest areas].

    I believe that whatever we focus on, we will hit, [this is why we set goals in life]. If we focus on the statement, “no one is perfect, and never will be”, then this is what we will achieve. If we look through scripture and say I want to be like Enoch…Hebrews 11:5, or Joshua 24: 15, or better yet, Jesus…John 8:29, we will eventually achieve that also. Instead we want to focus on the failures of Abraham, and David so we can excuse our weak, [or wicked], behavior and behavior we excuse, we never change! Don’t get me wrong, I thank God that He saw fit to include those He loved in spite of their failures in scripture, this helps me to press pass my own failures and try again. I just don’t think the Lord wanted us to make them our goal, standard, or excuse!!! [I Cor. 10:1-11, also verse 12 does not stand independently, but refers to the preceding verses, stating that we should not be presumptuous in our living, thinking that because we have done all these things in verses 1-4, that you can do verses 6-10, and still make it in, your “standing” is not that secure].

    [Also, I would like to say this, I have tried on numerous occasions to talk to Christians who believe this doctrine regarding these very scriptures, but each time, (except once), I was refused and the these scriptures were not addressed. I was not approaching them to argue, my reasoning was that if I am wrong regarding this doctrine, then I needed to change my stance. Since almost all of them refuse to address these scriptures, I have come to believe that their doctrine is built on the wrong foundation. The one man who was willing to review the scriptures and get back to me, called with repentance saying the word of God is right and he realized I was only concerned for his soul].

    Now, we can talk about what we believe, or don’t believe, or what we think, but our opinions matter little if they are not supported by the word of God, so let’s look in the scriptures.

    There are so many scriptures that have to be considered when researching this doctrine, so I have divided them into sections. (Also keep in mind that after the book of Acts, the remainder of scripture was written to the “church”, not to sinners. These were letters to the church, telling “us” how to live):

    1)The Conditions for Eternal Security – Hebrews 5:9

    a)Isaiah 1: 18-20…if you are willing and obedient.
    b)John 14: 15, 21…love, obedience, manifestation.
    c)John 15: 6-8…His words must abide in you.
    d)Romans 2:13/James 1:22…the doers of the word are justified before God, not the hearers.
    e)Romans 10: 13-16…once one calls on His name, they have to obey His voice.
    f)I Peter 1: 13-17…grace as obedient children, being holy as he is holy. (Would the Lord ask something of us that was impossible for us to do)?

    2)Stipulations:
    a)Isaiah 59: 1-3…sin separates one from the Lord.
    b)Ezekiel 3: 20-21/33: 12-13, 17…even before Christ, the Lord said the righteous does not sinned.
    c)Luke 6: 46-49…what are you building on? If you are not doing what the Lord says, then you are building without a foundation.
    d)John 15: 1-8…Abide in Him, let His word abide in us…
    e)Acts 10: 35…to be accepted by Him, you must work righteousness.
    f)Romans chapter 6…shall we continue in sin that grace may increase, God forbid…we should no longer be slaves to sin…Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies…whoever you obey, you are slaves to…(read the whole chapter, in fact, read the whole book of Romans).
    g)Romans 8: 1…no condemnation to those who do not walk according to the flesh…
    h)Exodus 32: 33/Revelations 3:5…if you do not overcome, your name can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

    Con't...

    Grace, and Peace...
    Last edited by Lady Ashanti; Sep 9th 2008 at 02:14 AM. Reason: Missing Title...

  2. #2
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    Eternal Security...Part 2...

    Con't...

    3)There is only two sides, no middle ground:
    a)Matthew 12: 25, 26/Mark 3:25…house divided cannot stand.
    b)Matthew 12: 30…either for Christ are against Him, (if you love me keep my commandments-John 14: 17, and how do you call Him “Lord”, and do not the things He says-Luke 6:46).
    c)John 8: 41-47 (verse 38)…only two fathers, God or the devil.
    d)I John 1: 5 thru 2: 6…if you say you know God…we must walk as Jesus did.

    4)There are things we must do, (individual responsibility):
    a)Matthew 10: 38-39/Mark 8:34…one must take up his cross, and then follow Christ. [Cross: (original definition) stake, post, pole, and instrument of punishment, exposure to death, self-denial].
    b)Acts 2: 40… Save yourself
    c)Romans 6: 6-23…present your bodies as slaves to righteousness.
    d)I Corinthians 6:12…don’t allow yourselves to be brought under the power of things that are not expedient.
    e)I Corinthians 9: 27-10: 11…we still have a free will, and must us it to bring our own bodies under subjection.
    f)II Corinthians 7: 1…we have to cleanse ourselves
    g)I Thessalonians 4: 3-5…possess your own vessel in sanctification.
    h)II Timothy 2: 21…cleanse yourselves
    i)Hebrews 10: 36…after you have done the will of God…

    5)Disciples (definition: disciplined followers of Christ):
    a)Matthew 28: 19-20…we were not commissioned to make “Christians”, (although a Christian is suppose to be someone who is from or like Christ), we were commissioned to make “disciples”, people who are disciplined as Christ was.
    b)Matthew 10: 22-25…we are to be like Christ! Was He holy, perfect, sinless, YES! Then why would He command us to be like Him, if it was something impossible for us to do?
    c)Luke 14: 26-33…the cost of discipleship…
    d)John 8: 31-36…disciples are not slaves to sin…
    e)John 13: 35…disciples love…
    f)John 15: 8…disciples are fruitful…
    g)Hebrews 12:14…holiness without which no man shall see the Lord…
    h)I Peter 1: 16…be you holy for I am holy…

    6)The Bible does speak of those who were Christians but fell away:
    a)Matthew 24: 13…you have to endure to the end…
    b)Luke 12: 43-46…parable of the servant…
    c)Romans 1: 21-32…they knew God…(v.21).
    d)Romans 11: 16-24…you also will be cut off…(v. 21-22).
    e)I Corinthians 10: 1-12…these were our examples to heed…
    f)II Thessalonians 2: 3…apostasy in the church…
    g)I Timothy 4: 1-2…departs from the faith…(for one to depart, he had to have been there).
    h)Hebrews 6: 4-6…it is impossible to renew those if they fall away since they crucify afresh the Son of God…
    i)Hebrews 10: 26-31…the case against willful sin…
    j)II Peter 2: 18-22…they escaped but were entangled again…
    k)Jude 5-6…did not continue…

    7)Now, they say our “works” don’t matter, [can't earn salvation by works], but let’s look at the scriptures on our works AFTER accepting Christ:
    a)Deuteronomy 30: 19-20/Joshua 24: 14-15…we have a free will, and when we give our lives to Christ, we still have a free will.
    b)Matthew 16: 27…will reward everyone according to their works.
    c)Romans 2: 6-13…judgement according to your deedsdoers, not just hears, are justified with God.
    d)II Corinthians 5: 10…we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ to receive for the things done in this body…whether good or bad.
    e)Philippians 2: 12-13…obeys…work out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling…(how?)…Christ working in your will.
    f)Titus 1: 16…profess to know God but in their works, they deny Him…
    g)James 2: 14-27…faith without works is dead…believing is not enough…
    h)Revelations 14: 13…your works will follow you…
    i)Revelations 20: 12…judged according to your works
    j)Revelations 22: 11-14…However you are when you die is how you will appear before the Lord…you will be rewarded according to your works…those who will have a right to the tree of life will be those who do His commandments.


    Side Notes:


    ·I heard a Pastor say once, “There is one thing GRACE cannot do, grace cannot condemn the sinner while allowing the saints to go free for the same things”…I Corinthians 5: 9-13.
    ·We have to be aware and believe that the Lord will judge sin, no matter who it is in, sinner or professing saint…Luke 21: 36/Romans 2: 3-12.
    ·The Lord said He would give us power to be a witness, (not to do witnessing), not an action, but a lifestyle…Acts 1: 8.
    ·I heard a Pastor say once that we want to lean on needing “deliverance” because we do not want to be “disciplined”. Whether we like it or not, we are accountable for our actions, the Lord said, “ the day that you hear my voice harden not your heart”…Hebrews 3: 7-13, because if you know what is “good”, you are accountable to do it…James 4: 17.
    ·If the Lord is not concern when we sin because of grace, then explain the reason for I Corinthians 5: 9-13 and I Corinthians 5: 5.
    ·And what of “presumptuous” sinning? …Psalm 19:13
    ·Someone once said, “the difference between a sheep and a pig is that when a sheep falls in the mud, he cries to get out, but when a pig falls in the mud, he wallows and enjoys it. We are to be sheep, and the Lord once said to me, “sheep can easily go astray, this is why we need to follow the Shepherd very closely”.



    Excuses:


    ·But Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us…(Hebrews 13: 5), and this is true. The issue is not Him leaving us, but us leaving Him. You know the Spirit of the Lord will not dwell in an unclean place…II Corinthians 6: 16 through 7:1.
    ·But nothing can separate us from the love of God…(Romans 8: 35-39), and this is true, nothing can separate us from the love of God, but I am not talking about being separate from His love, but His presence, fellowship, Kingdom. The Lord loves us unconditionally, even while we were yet sinners, “God commended His love toward us”…Romans 5: 8…but we were still on our way to hell. There is another aspect to God’s love…who He loves, He chastens…Hebrews 12: 5-7.
    ·But Jesus did a finished work, and this is true, it is our “work” that I am speaking about. We still have to put on Christ…Romans 13: 14/Ephesians 6: 12-14/II Peter 1: 5-8, and our salvation is a process. The Bible says, “they added to the church those who were being saved”…Acts 2: 47.
    ·But if we had to worry about our sins, that would make us very self-absorbed, but the Bible says we should “judge ourselves so we won’t need to be judged”…I Corinthians 11: 31, and to “examine ourselves”…I Corinthians 11: 28/II Corinthians 13: 5/Galatians 6: 4.
    ·But Paul said in Roman 7: 18-19… ‘For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice”…and this is true, but read on because he also said there was a remedy…verse 24-25…”what can deliver me from this body of death? …I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    Grace and Peace...

  3. #3
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    "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:1-3

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    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 7:17-21

  5. #5
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    I think maybe you have the foolishness of the ones who say you can live however you want to after you are saved and remain totally unscathed confused with the Eternal Security belief. The first is total nonsense and I agree a total danger. The term Eternal Security is another thing altogether which is possible you may not understand the BIG difference.

    Be more than happy to tell you about it if you wish.
    Pray for Brent, Mieke, River of Life Mission Church, The McMinn County Tennessee Sheriff's Chaplaincy, the opportunity to witness, and if you run outta things to pray for, would you remember me too?
    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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    By the way, it's probably best to start a thread with a statement of maybe a paragraph or two and then give the remainder of your assertion as the thread progresses. Give others a chance to discuss the matter and explore all the options. Just a suggestion.
    Pray for Brent, Mieke, River of Life Mission Church, The McMinn County Tennessee Sheriff's Chaplaincy, the opportunity to witness, and if you run outta things to pray for, would you remember me too?
    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

  7. #7
    The inherent problem with your thesis is that it puts the belief in a vacuum. Maybe when one looks at perseverance of the saints by itself we can see the problems you see. However, when listed with sanctification, it doesn't work.

    You're attacking a Calvinist doctrine, but placing it on an Arminian grid. In other words, you're taking the belief out of its bigger context. We believe we are secure because He has chosen us and has begun a good work in us and that He will be faithful to complete it.

    Even in a non-Calvinist viewpoint, one can argue that we freely enter into a covenant in which He preserves us via sanctification.

    To say it's a license to sin is really to admit that you don't really know much about the belief.

  8. #8
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    Lady, run for cover! No, seriously, I agree with most of your post. As stated above I would not use the term eternal security, I think a better term is "Once Saved, Always Saved" or "OSAS". Eternal security can be attained by the person who continues faithful in the gospel to the end. I also don't know about your statement of reaching "sinless perfection," I know Jesus said go and sin no more, but this may have ben metaphorical.

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    "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Mat 5:48

    "Be" here is a future tense, so we might read it as: become.. perfect...

    A continual process - with a goal that is certainly only obtainable through faith.

    Still, I think the point is that we need to make effort toward that goal, rather than relying on completeness through a prayer that we once uttered.

  10. #10
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    Ya mean something like this Richard???

    Phillipians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
    Pray for Brent, Mieke, River of Life Mission Church, The McMinn County Tennessee Sheriff's Chaplaincy, the opportunity to witness, and if you run outta things to pray for, would you remember me too?
    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Parson View Post
    Ya mean something like this Richard???

    Phillipians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
    Yeah. That's it - exactly!

  12. #12
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    (15 characters)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisLeast View Post

    (15 characters)
    There is always one in the crowd...

    HisLeast, it's a simple premise. Whereas we are saved by grace and ever working out our own slavation with fear and trembling (Phillipians 2:12) always pressing toward the mark of the High Calling in Christ (Phillipians 3:14). And trying to finish the race to Glory (Hebrews 12:1)
    Pray for Brent, Mieke, River of Life Mission Church, The McMinn County Tennessee Sheriff's Chaplaincy, the opportunity to witness, and if you run outta things to pray for, would you remember me too?
    1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisLeast View Post

    (15 characters)
    If I understand this thread (it was a bit much - right at first),
    The idea of "once saved always saved" is not scriptural.

    I can remember repeating that "simple prayer" with the man on TV many times, but it wasn't until I made a real commitment to follow Jesus and make an real effort to grow in Him that my prayer really mattered.

    "Once saved always saved" leads to complacency and ultimately to unfruitfulness. We are called to remain in Him - and that takes more than a one time "commitment". It is not our being "born again" that counts. it is finishing the race.

  15. #15
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    I thought it sounded like the old OSAS/NOSAS thing, but they changed all the terms around on me.

    This conflict has always confused me. It seems the more I hear it, the more it sounds like both sides are saying the exact same thing. So where as the NOSASer (which is cliche, but for lack of a better term) will say that the "sinner's prayer reciter" often "doesn't finish the race", the OSASer most often is not including such people in their definition of saved (and thus always so).

    In my experience, they almost always describe the same sample of people the exact same way.

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